Aneurin Bevan - the greatest British politician?

[exosculate]

Beveridge set out the post WW2 welfare state (he was a Liberal) and had cross party support.

*coughs*

 

[tbaldwin]

I think that MP's who aspire to represent the working class should take the wage of an average worker. Not down Moet and hob-nob with para-fascists.

And Nye's "lower-than-vermin" was a good left soundbite (leaving people to think "ooh, he must really hate the Tories). Meanwhile: "I say Max [Beaverbrook] could you pass the Bollinger old chap"!

I think a workers MP on a workers wage was always a good idea. But the truth is that politicians are not perfect and they are going to be self serving to an extent. But name me somebody who isnt!
The double standards of people who love to point out shock horror that "politicians are not perfect"is pointless.

 

[editor]

I think that MP's who aspire to represent the working class should take the wage of an average worker.

He did better than that.

He was sacked for defending his fellow workers and was later made unemployable for four, long years - and that was in a time of zero welfare. Is that hard core enough for you?

Despite having no job and no income, he continued to work as an unpaid adviser to people living in Tredegar.

Aneurin Bevan, Tribune (23rd April, 1942)

The Government has tried everything to solve the problem of the mining industry. Semi-starvation, imprisonment, extortions, threats, the supplications of the miners' leaders, and what is almost the omnipotence of Churchill's oratory - all have failed. There is one thing they have not tried. They haven't tried getting rid of the coalowners. For the one truth the Government have not learned. You can get coal without coalowners, but you cannot get coal without miners. Let us not lose heart. The miners will teach it them one day.

This sound like a "sell out" speech to you?

"That is why no amount of cajolery can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin. They condemned millions of first-class people to semi-starvation."

 

[rebel warrior]

There are lots of other people who deserve to be remembered before Bevan when it comes to 'Greatest British Politician', for example:

JOHN BALL (executed 1381)

JOHN LILBURNE (1614-1657)

MARY WOLLSTONECRAFT (1759-1797)

JAMES BRONTERRE O'BRIEN (1804-1865)

WILLIAM CUFFAY (1788-1870)

WILLIAM MORRIS (1834-1896)

ELEANOR MARX (1855-1898)

TOM MANN (1856-1941)

SYLVIA PANKHURST (1882-1960)

JOHN MACLEAN (1879-1923)

SHAPURJI SAKLATVALA (1874-1936)

For more on these people, see:

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php4?article_id=4301

 

[articul8]

He did better than that.

He was sacked for defending his fellow workers and was later made unemployable for four, long years - and that was in a time of zero welfare. Is that hard core enough for you?

Despite having no job and no income, he continued to work as an unpaid adviser to people living in Tredegar.

So even the best get corrupted by the privilege of parliament, cabinet and all the trappings. Which is why you need safegards such as the workers' wage, the immediate right to recall.

And there is no doubt that Bevan was a powerful orator who no doubt inspired many to become socialists. But words need to be matched by actions. Even someone like Kinnock claimed to be in the "Bevanite" tradition, which probably meant speak effectively, pose left, and "pragmatically" adapt (ie. prepare to sell-out) in order to aim for the top jobs. Not that that is Bevan's fault, though.

 

[editor]

So even the best get corrupted by the privilege of parliament, cabinet and all the trappings. Which is why you need safegards such as the workers' wage, the immediate right to recall.

And there is no doubt that Bevan was a powerful orator who no doubt inspired many to become socialists. But words need to be matched by actions. Even someone like Kinnock claimed to be in the "Bevanite" tradition, which probably meant speak effectively, pose left, and "pragmatically" adapt (ie. prepare to sell-out) in order to aim for the top jobs. Not that that is Bevan's fault, though.

Right.

So all his hard work and personal sacrifice over decades can be safely discounted and dismissed at a stroke because - from the lofty vantage point of your high moral ground - he supposedly committed the unforgivable sin of being "corrupted by the privilege of parliament" in his later years, yes?

His words and deeds inspired more people to become socialist, did more for workers rights, did more for the general well being of the nation than you'll ever achieve, so what gives you the right to judge so damningly?

 

[Sorry.]

erm, wasn't the premise of the thread to discuss whether or not Aneurin Bevan was the greatest British politician? or was the premise just to agree with you?

 

[rebel warrior]

We should not damn Bevan too harshly, it is true, for when he was good, he exemplified all the best traditions of the British working class movement. However, if you want to find a 'politician' who achieved at least as much as Bevan for the oppressed and exploited yet never got trapped by the temptations of power, nor tempted by the trappings of power, then they are possible to find...

 

[editor]

erm, wasn't the premise of the thread to discuss whether or not Aneurin Bevan was the greatest British politician? or was the premise just to agree with you?

I think you'll find I'm currently defending my claim that Bevan is one of the political greats against someone who disagrees.

What are you doing here? Scoring off topic points?

 

[Dubversion]

Its going back a bit, but I've always had a soft spot for Charles James Fox, eighteenth century leader of the radical whigs, hero of the London mob, and bon viveur extraordinaire. Gave his name to the Intrepid Fox pub in Soho. The good politicians often have pubs named after them.

if memory serves, it was more a backhander of some kind, wasn't it? although i forget the specific.

 

[phildwyer]

if memory serves, it was more a backhander of some kind, wasn't it? although i forget the specific.

Was it? That's interesting, and highly credible, given the nature of the man. I'd always assumed it was a kind of popular tribute, like the Lord John Russell in Bloomsbury, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Dubversion]

i think there was some 'drinks for votes' goings-on.

 

[comstock]

Although I support (New) Labour I'm going for a Liberal...David Lloyd George .... mainly for ending the indignity of the workhouse.

Most Labour politicans of old were too close to the overpowerful unions.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Although I support (New) Labour I'm going for a Liberal...David Lloyd George .... mainly for ending the indignity of the workhouse.

Most Labour politicans of old were too close to the overpowerful unions.

Don't mention the war! As in the First World War. Although the workhouses were scaled back before WWII, it wasn't until the post-war Labour government that they were officially abolished.

 

[comstock]

Don't mention the war! As in the First World War. Although the workhouses were scaled back before WWII, it wasn't until the post-war Labour government that they were officially abolished.

Although it was Lloyd George who took the first vital steps. He gets my vote over Bevan because of what the unions later did in the mining industry (not Bevan's intention I'm sure).

The 1945-51 government was otherwise sound, and did much good work. The NHS alone has given Bevan a heck of a legacy, but I'd still put Lloyd George first.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

When I was writing the Harold Hill history I went into detail into both Bevan and Margaret Thatcher - both paid visits to the estate at the height of their political careers, and the juxtaposition between the two was just a too good an opportunity to miss. Read all the biography's apart from Michael Foot's - I'm told that the first volume of that is particularly inspiring.
In many ways I can't really find too much fault in him - he's a rare breed on the left of the Labour Party because he actually got something done rather than just shouting what should be done from the sidelines. He was under tremendous pressure during his time as Minister to build houses - he held out for quality over quantity. That was the right decision to make. The social housing build under his stewardship is the best quality built either since or before. Well, my write up of his life and an account of his 1949 visit to Harold Hill is here . I think it's quite a fair account.

 

[editor]

The article looks good, but it would really benefit from being broken up with more paragraphs and perhaps a small index/timeline at the top as it's a bit of a bugger to read as it is.

 

[articul8]

I think you'll find I'm currently defending my claim that Bevan is one of the political greats against someone who disagrees.

So you think it is perfectly consistent for a "political great", a principled socialist to be chummy in polite society with those who explicitly supported appeasing fascists?

I don't doubt that - in relative terms - Bevan was a greater figure than most in the history of the Labour party. What I do contest, is that he is some kind of perfect epitome of radicalism.

And if his achievements disqualify all lesser mortals from criticising his mistakes, why start the thread?

 

[Sorry.]

I think you'll find I'm currently defending my claim that Bevan is one of the political greats against someone who disagrees.

You were trying to stifle any criticism of your opinion with your "what have you ever done" spiel. Wasn't exactly welcoming debate on the matter

What are you doing here? Scoring off topic points?

Was interested in the topic.

 

[editor]

Was interested in the topic. :

Strange then that you're still to add anything remotely on topic.

 

[editor]

What I do contest, is that he is some kind of perfect epitome of radicalism.

Who's made that claim?

Mind you, I can't see what's to be gained here in arguing the toss with a hindsight-blessed poster who seems to expect politicians to live up to impossibly high ideals or be damned for the slightest compromise, no matter what's gone before or what has been achieved.

 

[Sorry.]

Strange then that you're still to add anything remotely on topic.

I haven't decided who I think the greatest british politician is yet.

 

[Dhimmi]

If by greatest you mean the most honestly earnest for the benefit of all, Nye Bevan is the top candidate. The NHS is very likely the most positive reform in the history of Britain to touch upon everyones life in such an important way.
It's very easy and therefore LAZY to tar everything with the same brush, not all of anything is nothing but itself. Not all politicians are or were anything but politicians, when someone gets it right give them their due, unless you want a long stream of people who really don't care. What's next the Scouts are a christian militia?

 

[Kenny Vermouth]

My favourite politicians were Thatcher and Tebbit.

 

[articul8]

I agree that saying all political figures are "corrupt, self-seeking, careerist" etc is a lazy cop out. Sometimes compromise is necessary - the key question, though, is: compromise with whom, for how long, and for what ends? Bevan's abandonment of unilateral nuclear disarmament - howver he dressed it up - was objectively a shot in the arm for US imperialism and its allies, and a setback for global peace. This has to be balanced against his undoubted contribution in setting up the NHS.

Editor- you are conspicuously silent about Bevan's relationship with Beaverbrook. I am not counterposing some impossible moral standard of perfection - I just expect a socialist MP to take the kind of wage that his constituents are expected to live on, and not to be pampered by semi-fascist aristocracy.

 

[editor]

Editor- you are conspicuously silent about Bevan's relationship with Beaverbrook. I am not counterposing some impossible moral standard of perfection - I just expect a socialist MP to take the kind of wage that his constituents are expected to live on, and not to be pampered by semi-fascist aristocracy.

It seems that you'd rather passionate, brilliant people be rendered impotent by your hindsight-assisted, high moral demands that bear no relation to the real world.

So fucking what if he was in Beaverbrook's social circle in his later years? Does that somehow negate the enormous sacrificies he made when he was a miner, his unpaid community work or his remarkable achievement in setting up the NHS?

FYI, Bevan used his influence with Beaverbrook to get Michael Foot a job on the Standard with Foot saying later, "My friendship with Nye was the most important in my life." Was that a bad thing then?

 

[Belushi]

If by greatest you mean the most honestly earnest for the benefit of all, Nye Bevan is the top candidate. The NHS is very likely the most positive reform in the history of Britain to touch upon everyones life in such an important way.
It's very easy and therefore LAZY to tar everything with the same brush, not all of anything is nothing but itself. Not all politicians are or were anything but politicians, when someone gets it right give them their due, unless you want a long stream of people who really don't care. What's next the Scouts are a christian militia?

Spot on.

 

[rebel warrior]

One might also note his attitude to Stalinist Russia - Bevan was silent about Stalin's Moscow Trials and purges, when he was smart enough to know that they were hardly about 'justice'. Again, one shouldn't be too harsh here, as Stalinism exerted a massive influence on the Left in the 1930s at a time when fascism was on the rise - but things like this arguably should not be missed out when drawing up a balance sheet.

 

[editor]

.... but things like this arguably should not be missed out when drawing up a balance sheet.

As should the benefit of hindsight and the prevailing attitudes of the time.

 

[JHE]

Don't forget Clem

The NHS was one of the achievements of the 45-51 Labour government. Others include the end of the Raj, demobilisation, the implementation of Beveridge's cradle-to-grave welfare proposals and an extensive programme of nationalisation (the Bank of England, railways, coal, steel, gas and electricity, civil aviation, cable and wireless services & road transport).

Nominations for the greatest politician? How about the man who led that government? Clement Attlee, the best prime minister this country has had!