America, Worlds Biggest Debtor

[Jazzz]

Someone must have thought the US would repay else the debt wouldn't exist in the first place.

It can't happen - the money simply doesn't exist.

All that they can do (and do do) is simply 'reschedule' it - i.e. borrow loads more to keep honouring the bonds it has to pay up on. But this of course increases the debt. Hence, huge snowball.

As a point of interest, when central banks buy the bonds, money is created - unfortunately more has to paid back.

How Private, Commercial, National and International Money is Created

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Here to help indeed

I knew that bit of civility wasn't long for this world.

 

[spring-peeper]

"Fuck you."

ever see that rule where if you can get the other person to lose their temper, you win.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

I was just trying to find a source for the £87tr. and was looking at the CIA factbook. That lists the £8.7tr for the USA (but confusingly the US calls big numbers different things, so maybe this is £87tr in the US), but worryingly it also lists the UK as having £7.1tr debt.

Is this correct?

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html

 

[rogue yam]

ever see that rule where if you can get the other person to lose their temper, you win.

You fool yourself.

 

[Yossarian]

They owe $8 trillion?

Fuck, they'll never get it together to pay that much back, might as well start call in the bailiffs and start splitting the place up now - but the Chinese will probably bagsy all the good bits and everybody else will be stuck squabbling over New Jersey and Alabama...

 

[spring-peeper]

You fool yourself.

all I asked is if you had ever seen that rule - jeez, sorry for the thread derailment.

quote please!!!

 

[A Dashing Blade]

. . .
All that they can do (and do do) is simply 'reschedule' it - i.e. borrow loads more to keep honouring the bonds it has to pay up on. But this of course increases the debt. Hence, huge snowball.

I think you're confusing a reschedule (a defaulting company/country reschedules debt) with refinancing (old debt has to be redeemed, finance this by issuing new debt ie have to pay back $1bn, so borrow $1bn).
As I pointed out, US rates in general are at historic lows therefore it may be paying 8% on a bond issued 10years ago, but that could be paid off by borrowing (ie issuing a new bond) at 5%.
The current yield curve inversion (short-term rates are greater than long-term rates) is an historic abnormality that can be taken advantage of by borrowing long (say issue a 30 year 5% TBond), waiting for the curve to revert, buying back the debt (rates have gone up so the bond can be bought back below par) and refinacing by issuing shorter dated debt selling for par.

(probably got that all the right way round but 3 large bottles of becks have entered my body recently)

 

[rogue yam]

quote please!!!

You are making yourself look even more trivial than usual.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You are making yourself look even more trivial than usual.

Whereas you're merely reinforcing the picture people have of you as lazy, rude and ignorant.

 

[rogue yam]

Whereas you're merely reinforcing the picture people have of you as lazy, rude and ignorant.

I post as much well-reasoned, well-written material on these P&P threads as anyone, and far more than most including you. You lie when you claim otherwise.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

I post as much well-reasoned, well-written material on these P&P threads as anyone, and far more than most including you. You lie when you claim otherwise.

Cheers, Yammy. You are a comic genius.

P.S. You owe me a new keyboard - this one is now full of tea.

 

[nick1181]

Whereas you're merely reinforcing the picture people have of you as lazy, rude and ignorant.

Now now, be easy on the poor guy. It can't be easy - having "chosen a side" and then watched the whole thing go tits up in every concievable way.

The day after the last US election one of the major UK newspapers opened with this :

All the nasty little right wingers were jubiliant in their victory, bouncing up and down etc.

Well they ain't bouncing now.

They're all standing there, ashen-faced, watching as the horror unfolds... trying to deny it, trying to ignore it, trying to change the subject, trying to blame someone else...

... anything, anything, anything rather than admit...


... the liberals were right.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I post as much well-reasoned, well-written material on these P&P threads as anyone, and far more than most including you. You lie when you claim otherwise.

I disagree, as will anyone who cares to peruse our posting histories and assess the contributions we make.

You mostly post insult, larded with the occasional falsehood, and shot through with rightwing masturbatory rhetoric and chickenhawking.

Me, I don't do chickenhawking or masturbatory rhetoric, and I'm cutting down on the falsehoods.

As for the insults, I'd suggest you go fuck your momma, but I understand she's busy with your brother at the moment.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Now now, be easy on the poor guy. It can't be easy - having "chosen a side" and then watched the whole thing go tits up in every concievable way.

The day after the last US election one of the major UK newspapers opened with this :

All the nasty little right wingers were jubiliant in their victory, bouncing up and down etc.

Well they ain't bouncing now.

They're all standing there, ashen-faced, watching as the horror unfolds... trying to deny it, trying to ignore it, trying to change the subject, trying to blame someone else...

... anything, anything, anything rather than admit...


... the liberals were right.

People like Delinquent Rutabaga don't have it in them to admit they're wrong. To do so would provoke the kind of cognitive dissonance that might lead them to despair, and we all know that despair is UN-AMERICAN!

 

[Azrael23]

Now now, be easy on the poor guy. It can't be easy - having "chosen a side" and then watched the whole thing go tits up in every concievable way.

The day after the last US election one of the major UK newspapers opened with this :

All the nasty little right wingers were jubiliant in their victory, bouncing up and down etc.

Well they ain't bouncing now.

They're all standing there, ashen-faced, watching as the horror unfolds... trying to deny it, trying to ignore it, trying to change the subject, trying to blame someone else...

... anything, anything, anything rather than admit...


... the liberals were right.

You think if the US people had voted for Kerry things would have been shiny and bright? What exactly were the liberals right about? They did a fine job of offering little resistance to Bushes attacks on civil liberties not to mention his countless other crimes.

Bush and Kerry are both Skull and Bones men, they both jump to the same beat. They`re related for christ sake. (Hugh Heffner is also related to Bush and Kerry!)
I think people REALLY need to get past Liberal Vs Conservative...

It doesn`t matter who you vote for because most other voters are trapped in this fake Tweebledum VS tweedledee bi-polar political climate. You can vote Green every year until the apocalypse, it ain`t gonna happen is it? I`m not a green party person myself but its a good example of progressive politics being kept in the shed.

Here in the UK I everyone points and sneers as America is consumed by the cancer of the neo-cons. Look behind you! Blair has got away with murder here. He should have gone by now, I`m amazed, Teflon Tony!...my ass...smarmy lying well connected slimeball is more like it.

There are no real alternatives to vote for, Kilroy Silk!?

If our own parliament cannot be trusted to confront the true wants of the people then what other choice is there but reform by the people? Failure to do so means things just get gradually worse until you wake upto tyranny.

 

[axon]

Bush and Kerry are both Skull and Bones men, they both jump to the same beat. They`re related for christ sake.

From CBS website.."President George W. Bush and Sen. John Kerry are related. Well, sort of. They're ninth cousins, twice removed."
It's a conspiracy I tell you !!!!

 

[Azrael23]

From CBS website.."President George W. Bush and Sen. John Kerry are related. Well, sort of. They're ninth cousins, twice removed."
It's a conspiracy I tell you !!!!

They`re still related its factually true and I`ll continue to state it.

Distant relations or not its a sign of the,

*cough ARISTOCRACY OF AMERICA!!! *cough....

Eastern establishment anyone?

 

[Jazzz]

American Royal Family you mean

 

[rogue yam]

They`re still related its factually true and I`ll continue to state it.

It's also factually true that George W. Bush, William J. Clinton,
and rogue M.F. yam are related. So what?

 

[Azrael23]

It's also factually true that George W. Bush, William J. Clinton,
and rogue M.F. yam are related. So what?

Thats not true though. You know i meant genetically related.

I suppose it could argued for in the case of Clinton though. His parentage is ambiguous by all accounts.

 

[rogue yam]

Thats not true though. You know i meant genetically related.

So did I.

 

[nick1181]

You think if the US people had voted for Kerry things would have been shiny and bright? What exactly were the liberals right about?

I'm not talking about the Democrats, Jive Turkey. I'm talking about liberals.

And they're right about :
Not Going To War
Social responsability
Corporate responsability
Fiscal responsability

All the things in fact that have lead this current administration into a 8.7 Trillion dollar debt when the previous administration left a huge surplus.

The reason I posted a huge picture of GWB is that all the Neocon Apologists were all so Cock-a-Whoop at one point are now desperately trying to distract attention from the undeniable truth... like a frazzled coke-head trying to pretend that it's not daylight outside... the people that they've been derriding for the last four years... the liberals... were right.

 

[rogue yam]

All the things in fact that have lead this current administration into a 8.7 Trillion dollar debt when the previous administration left a huge surplus.

You are confusing two separate things; the national debt (the total value of US Treasury bonds outstanding) and the budget deficit (the difference between federal tax revenues and federal expenditures in any given year). In the late 1990s there was a year or two when there was no deficit. The United States has had a national debt for decades, and it has grown every year during this time except for the aforementioned period in the ~1999 timeframe. (I can't be bothered to look up the precise year(s).)

 

[nick1181]

You are confusing two separate things; the national debt (the total value of US Treasury bonds outstanding) and the budget deficit (the difference between federal tax revenues and federal expenditures in any given year). In the late 1990s there was a year or two when there was no deficit. The United States has had a national debt for decades, and it has grown every year during this time except for the aforementioned period in the ~1999 timeframe. (I can't be bothered to look up the precise year(s).)

And you are trying to distract from the horror of the truth... the right-wing religious extremists that are running your country are not displaying even minimal levels of competance - it's been one fucking fiasco after another, and all these people that you've been deriding were in fact right all the time.

and every day the paper-boy brings more.

There was this documentry on TV the night before last in which some returning Iraq vets were travelling across America - they place looks utterly trashed. It looks like teenagers have been partying in it.

 

[rogue yam]

There was this documentry on TV the night before last in which some returning Iraq vets were travelling across America - they place looks utterly trashed. It looks like teenagers have been partying in it.

This is just wishful thinking on your part.

 

[nick1181]

Not at all, I think it's a fucking tradgedy. One of the soldiers was crying - it was heart-breaking, and a million miles away from the ridiculous, gung-ho, armchair-generals that we have the rare honour of talking to here from time to time.

I also find it to be a tradgedy on a personal level - the UK and US have (in the music biz at least) been running what amounts to a really vibrant cultural exchange for the last 40 years or so. I can remember when it was really good an interesting to meet someone from America, just because they came from America.

The whole thing is kindof stained now. Now that the people running the US have behaved as irresponsible, blindly-selfish crooks for the last 4 and a bit years. Now when you meet someone from America, there's this little ritual that seems to have to happen - where they apologise for Bush. I've only ever met one who supported Bush and he was a bit weird - the lights were on but there was no one home. (and couple of minutes later he was verbally torn to shreds by this beautiful blonde girl from Belgium that we were hanging out with.)

Still, enough about me.

What do you reckon?

Were liberal predictions about what an utter fiasco the Iraq war would be, basically correct?
Has putting neocon corporate-raiders in charge of the treasury left it... emptier?
How is America's reputation these days? Compared to when Clinton was in charge for example?

 

[spring-peeper]

<snip> Now when you meet someone from America, there's this little ritual that seems to have to happen - where they apologise for Bush. I've only ever met one who supported Bush and he was a bit weird - the lights were on but there was no one home. (and couple of minutes later he was verbally torn to shreds by this beautiful blonde girl from Belgium that we were hanging out with.)<snip>

That has been my experience as well. There is a bit of a pause and then they apologise. It gives me a strange feeling and I feel a bit embarassed that they feel the need to justify themselves and separate themselves from their president.

btw - cemetryone started a thread on the documentary. Rogue Yam is expressing his doubt about the authenticity over there as well. As bad as I feel for the Americans who feel the need to apologize, I feel worse for Rogue Yam.

eta: beautiful blond from Belgium, eh? Lucky you

 

[rogue yam]

Still, enough about me.

What do you reckon?

I reckon that you are a lying leftist, frustrated by your "god that failed" (socialism), and unable to articulate a coherent vision for the future that stands any chance of having popular appeal. So you are reduced to hating America but lying about it in an utterly transparent and pathetic way. Boring.

It used to be said that "antisemitism is the socialism of fools". This was always incorrect and confused since it is socialism itself that is the socialism of fools. Now it is anti-Americanism that fills the void in souls that no longer believe in socialism, God, truth, or morality. Everybody has to have something. You have hatred and hope for the suffering of others. Congratulations.

 

[rogue yam]

beautiful blond from Belgium, eh? Lucky you

Yeah, right. This all reminds me of junior high school.