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Amazon MP3 download service to launch in UK

Even if that was true, I'm not dressing up my self interest as some sort of cod-political statement, maaaan.Do you think your 'right' to enjoy music extends to ripping off musicians by downloading an unlimited supply of their work for fuck all?

Or aren't their rights as important as yours?

Answer the question, do you think that because you have more disposable g's than me I have less right to enjoy music?

Like I said it's a fucked up system, artists charge for cd's, gigs and merch, they do this to get by, I don't take it personally or rant about them denying me access to this or that because I don't have more money, on the otherhand i try and get by as i can, by downloading music for nothing when I can.

You are the one bringing petie bourgeois morality into it, a morality that might have some relevance if we lived in some small scale barter economy but which has fuck all relevance when living under a economic system that is inherently exploitative.
 
Answer the question, do you think that because you have more disposable g's than me I have less right to enjoy music?
Totally irrelevant. When I was on the dole for years on end, I had no shortage of music to listen to - I used to take music out from the library every other day, I borrowed records from friends, I listened to the radio and I bought cheap second hand records. And I'd go to free gigs. It wasn't hard.

But what I didn't do was start stamping my feet up and down and start demanding that society owed me the 'right' to own as much music as I goddamn wanted.
You are the one bringing petie bourgeois morality...
Er, no. You brought it up, not me.

Oh, seeing as you keep thinking it's all about money, please note that I run these boards which are free to access and several club nights - some with live bands - which are also free to all.
 
I used to take music out from the library every other day, I borrowed records from friends, I listened to the radio and I bought cheap second hand records. And I'd go to free gigs. It wasn't hard.

and how do any of these differ from me just downloading the stuff? In either case i'm not giving the band any money for listening to their music, infact all i'm doing is needlessly using a resource someone else might use. Why would I borrow a cd and deprive my mate from it when I could just download it myself?

Or is it just a case of the undeserving poor? A 21st Century digital workhouse mentality, yes you will let us listen to music but we should have to jump through artificial hoops to get it, afterall we can't have the proles beginning to feel they are entitled to anything?

and who is stamping there feet and demanding anything? I don't need to I just download as I wish.

seriously it's like the Marx quote, Capitalism is desperately trying to maintain an artifical scarcity,
"When the productive forces progress to a certain stage, the existing production relations become a fetter to the progress of productive forces; at this point, social revolution inevitably occurs."
 
Hey, we can't all spend our lives with obscure torrent sites and arse-puckeringly exclusive communities. I'm a time-wasting internet bastard but I've got better fucking things to do than that.


you're just no fun anymore....



getting a good copy of a lot of stuff is a fucking pain ...
 
citizensmith.jpg


Liberate the proletariat thru free mp3s
and episodes of Heroes....:rolleyes:
 
I agree with Revol all the way here. I don't think anyone should expect to make a living from art. If they do, good for them. If not, they can get a 9-5 like most artists and make their art in their free time - after all, it's not about the money, right?

Artists have historically been poor, haven't they?
 
I agree with Revol all the way here. I don't think anyone should expect to make a living from art. If they do, good for them. If not, they can get a 9-5 like most artists and make their art in their free time - after all, it's not about the money, right?

Artists have historically been poor, haven't they?
Unless they have a patron, yes.

Earning a living from popular/folk music is a very recent thing, historically speaking. Earning a living from musical recordings is even more recent. Although it's a great way of making a living as an artist, there's nothing inherent about it - a coming together of technology, capitalism and culture has made the paid-for music recording a possibility. It will not always be this way. It's changing already. There's music 'as a service' - pay £8 a month and listen to as much recoreded music as you like! There's artists making money through live performance, using the recorded album as promotional material. There's honesty/donation payments direct to the band. There's artists reaching a global audience, but only on the internet. The whole notion of what music is, who owns it, who creates it and how much it costs all participants, is very much up in the air.
 
Earning a living from popular/folk music is a very recent thing, historically speaking.
Eh? Travelling minstrels making a living out of their music have been around for centuries!

In England before the Norman Conquest, the professional poet was known as a scôp ("shaper" or "maker"), who composed his own poems, and sang them to the accompaniment of a rude harp. Another type of performers, in a rank much beneath the scôp, were the gleemen, who had no settled abode, but roamed about from place to place, earning what they could from their performances. Late in the 13th century, the term minstrel began to be used to designate a performer who amused his lord with music and song.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrels
 
Earning a living from popular/folk music is a very recent thing, historically speaking. Earning a living from musical recordings is even more recent. Although it's a great way of making a living as an artist, there's nothing inherent about it - a coming together of technology, capitalism and culture has made the paid-for music recording a possibility. It will not always be this way. It's changing already. There's music 'as a service' - pay £8 a month and listen to as much recoreded music as you like! There's artists making money through live performance, using the recorded album as promotional material. There's honesty/donation payments direct to the band. There's artists reaching a global audience, but only on the internet. The whole notion of what music is, who owns it, who creates it and how much it costs all participants, is very much up in the air.


Now this is closer to the emerging reality than "artists have worked to create the music therefore they have a right to be paid for it".

In an economic system, no-one has a right to be paid for anything. It's just supply and demand. Work has an economic value where it can't be obtained free. I'm no feminist but look at the situation with the traditional role of women in childcare. Any objective observation of that activity would make it look like work. And yet much of it goes unpaid.

Economically again, the value of music is to do with its comparative differentiation or commodification. We all know that there are numerous talented artists out there making fantastic music, but almost no-one knows about them. They don't have recording contracts or a marketing machine behind them. Is their work inferior to the latest clone band chart-toppers? No. Is it economically less valuable? Of course. The difference? Marketing. That's what you're paying for.

Marketing creates the desire to consume one product rather than a substitute. In the music industry, it often creates the desire to pay for bad music instead of obtaining good music free.

But marketing isn't art. The art itself not only often is created with no intention of seeking reward, but it can be distributed and publicised nearly-free.

Extending Crispy's point, the economic value of music recordings is just a historical blip due to a transient convergence of social ideas and technology. That time is now passing. The vast majority of artists won't be any worse off than they ever were. Many of them may even be better off, managing to obtain small recompense from a niche audience rather than an all-or-nothing success-or-die situation that has existed up until recently. The people in the business of selling music recordings, though, will definitely be worse off. Their industry is becoming increasingly irrelevant and very soon they will be disintermediated out of existence.

None of this is an invitation to steal other people's music, in as much as that concept is a valid one. If someone is offering their music for sale, you have a moral obligation to pay the price or pass on by. But economically, you have many other options that ultimately will completely undermine that business model.
 
Err, but they were still professional musicians, making a living out of music.

There's a big difference between paying for a recording and paying for a performance.

A recording is property and charging for it is economic rent. Very often a recording of music isn't owned by the artist.

A performance is a service or work. A very different concept indeed.
 
None of this is an invitation to steal other people's music, in as much as that concept is a valid one. If someone is offering their music for sale, you have a moral obligation to pay the price or pass on by.
After my experiences in the music industry, I've no love for record companies and would find it a very exciting time to be in a band right now.

Trouble is, the record companies may be losing their grip, but big business will always have its claws in: MySpace is owned by Murdoch, many of the venues are owned by the big boys and corporate sponsorship of music events has never been higher.

But there's certainly far more opportunity for bands to break out on their own, at least in some areas, and that's ruddy great.
 
So has the working class.

You do realise that if musicians didn't get paid, there wouldn't be so much good music around. Is that what you want?

Your argument falls down when you look outside the big selling artists where many bands and producers work normal, nine to five jobs, and still make music which is more exciting and pleasing to listen to than most of the output in the charts. In my humblest, of course.
 
After my experiences in the music industry, I've no love for record companies and would find it a very exciting time to be in a band right now.

Trouble is, the record companies may be losing their grip, but big business will always have its claws in: MySpace is owned by Murdoch, many of the venues are owned by the big boys and corporate sponsorship of music events has never been higher.

Big business will always find a way to make money in markets where people can be persuaded to pay for something because they can't get something comparable for nothing. This comes back to the discussion we had about social networking sites. I could set up my own MySpace clone with all the same features, but it wouldn't have the reputation and audience of MySpace therefore it would be a lot less valuable.

So this discussion really needs to centre around what people consider to be the problem. If your problem is capitalism then you might not like many of the things that will supersede the paying-for-music-recordings industry.

If your problem is just paying for recordings of music then that problem will soon disappear.

What do you really want? Revolution or free songs for your iPod?
 
Err, but they were still professional musicians, making a living out of music.
Yes. I agree with you.
But they didn't make their money from recordings. The mechanisms that make that possible are crumbling. Whilst this may be bad news for the recordings business, the live music business will continue to thrive. And as untethered says, the vast majority of all musicians don't make a living from their recordings anyway. Only the tiny percentage who 'make it' do - ie. they get lifted up high by the incredible marketing and distribution muscle of the record companies.
 
Hold on. Crispy said: "Earning a living from popular/folk music is a very recent thing, historically speaking."

That was the point I was arguing.

And you weren't differentiating between two entirely different ways of earning a living from popular music, so I did it for you.
 
Hold on. Crispy said: "Earning a living from popular/folk music is a very recent thing, historically speaking."

That was the point I was arguing.

I'll clarify my point then, and say "Earning a decent living from popular/folk music is a very recent thing, historically speaking."
 
I agree with Crispy here.

There is a whole sea-change happening due to the possibilities opened up with technology. Musicians just have to go with the flow and adapt.

I'm pretty sure there were plenty of musicians who were pissed off when cinemas came in and the music-hall gigs started drying up. Then talking pictures came in and the cinema pianist gigs dried up, then TV came in and the whole cinema industry itself crapped itself as they saw their ticket numbers drop off and foresaw a day when people would never want to go to the cinema. And when the synthesiser came out, the musician unions were up in arms as whole swathes of orchestras would be dumped in favour of a Moog and a couple of "orchestra" presets.

In most cases, musicians found alternative outlets for their creative efforts.

Peter Gabriel was talking recently at the launch of his ad-sponsored download service, but you could see in his eyes that he knew the game was up regarding recorded music. As he put it, there's a whole generation growing up that is not used to paying for recorded music. Musicians have to accept this fact, and adapt to new business models and possibilities opened up by technology. If I was a 15 year old kid, I may not buy the latest CD by my favoutite band, but a version of it on a cool collectable USB drive? maybe.

T-Shirt? probably.
Live Gig? definitely.

We can celebrate the age of the mega recording artists, by all means - but that age is coming to an end, even though it's pretty much accepted that most musicians have been shafted by their own record companies for years (just ask Bo Diddley).

The retailers seem to be doing too little, too late, as well. To give you an example I ordered 2 CDS for friends 3 weeks before Xmas. One was a fairly standard major label CD that I ordered from HMV.com.

The other was a CD from a tiny independent label in Lubbock, Texas. It arrived via airmail the same week I ordered it. The CD came with a lovingly crafted book that was integral to an understanding of the songs - the whole package was so good I ordered another copy for myself. The thing sounded fantastic (produced by Lloyd Maines and anyone who knows who he is, knows what I am talking about).

The HMV.com CD arrived about a month later.
 
Anyway if you can afford to do it then congratulations, I can't, do you think that because I earn considerably less than you I should have less right to enjoy music?

I can't think of any coherent philosophy according to which you would have a right to enjoy music (free).

You will, however, have the opportunity to do so if some people have non-economic reasons for producing and distributing free music. Fortunately, it appears that many do.
 
I'll clarify my point then, and say "Earning a decent living from popular/folk music is a very recent thing, historically speaking."
You'd still be inaccurate. Some minstrels enjoyed a reasonable standard of living compared to the masses.
It would be a mistake to think of medieval minstrels aimlessly wandering Europe in search of venues at which to perform. Rather, the goal of many minstrels was to achieve the relative financial security to be found with the patronage of a wealthy lord or noble house. Music played an important part of aristocratic life from ancient times and the early Middle Ages was no different. Providing music and other entertainment to the court during meals, during hunting parties, or at feasts, dances, or other special occasions was the job of court minstrels.
http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/popculture/PsixM.html
 
I can't think of any coherent philosophy according to which you would have a right to enjoy music (free).

You will, however, have the opportunity to do so if some people have non-economic reasons for producing and distributing free music. Fortunately, it appears that many do.

Communism.:D
 
Ah, but that's patronage. Quite a different concept - and one that's still around for plenty of other arts.
 
and how do any of these differ from me just downloading the stuff? In either case i'm not giving the band any money for listening to their music, infact all i'm doing is needlessly using a resource someone else might use. Why would I borrow a cd and deprive my mate from it when I could just download it myself?

Or is it just a case of the undeserving poor? A 21st Century digital workhouse mentality, yes you will let us listen to music but we should have to jump through artificial hoops to get it, afterall we can't have the proles beginning to feel they are entitled to anything?

Any chance of an answer Ed?
 
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