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Amazon makes money then wants to make even more money

Discussion in 'UK politics, current affairs and news' started by Tropi, Aug 10, 2017.

  1. Casually Red

    Casually Red tomorrow belongs to me

    Yeah but as we know many of these big companies are the people who tell governments and political parties what their tax policies should be . Who donate lots of money to politicians and give them jobs with their companies as " consultants " and the like . In the pockets of big business, and this is the end result .
  2. Dandred

    Dandred Mmmmm Beer!

    Great business model though, unless people stop buying from them, it can't be stopped. ;)
  3. BemusedbyLife

    BemusedbyLife Well-Known Member

    A turnover tax will hammer small and medium businesses, much of the money they take in goes out again to pay for materials and especially wages, taxing them on everything that comes in will put loads of them out of business and virtually all recent job growth is companies with less than 250 staff.
    What needs tackling is all the clever stunts moving money about over borders and sadly we're in the process of giving up our strongest tool in that regard
    stavros likes this.
  4. cupid_stunt

    cupid_stunt Handle with care.

    Depends how it's structured, there could be a threshold before it kicks in, and a scale of rates depending on turn-over thereafter.
  5. Sasaferrato

    Sasaferrato T'agba ta ti de, a ma yo ogunja.

    I'm not suggesting a universal turnover tax, only for high turnover low tax businesses like Amazon, Starbucks etc. Set it for turnover over a billion or so.
  6. Sasaferrato

    Sasaferrato T'agba ta ti de, a ma yo ogunja.

    Nauseating. Dave Hartnett, the cunt who let Vodaphone walk away from a £6Bn tax bill, left HMRC and is now on their board.
  7. Amazon don't turn over jack, they act as a marketplace for other businesses.

    Your move, Kasparov.
  8. He should be in prison.
  9. stavros

    stavros Well-Known Member

    I fear that they and their accomplices at the big four beancounters will devise ways around this too. Starbucks, for example, might make each branch an independent business, each individual outlet falling below whatever threshold was set for turnover.

    Speaking as a someone who isn't an accountant or lawyer, nor has been trained in either profession, we could rip up the tax rule book and start again. I understand that the UK legislation on tax is remarkably big compared with almost every other developed western economy, and such labyrinthine systems are bound to have more than enough loopholes to satisfy a competent financial schemer.
  10. Sasaferrato

    Sasaferrato T'agba ta ti de, a ma yo ogunja.

    They sell on their own account, as well as carrying stock for other sellers. There are also the electronic sales, music, film etc.
    cupid_stunt likes this.
  11. And people in the U.K. buy the stuff, where is it sold from? Who can tax the turnover?
  12. Sasaferrato

    Sasaferrato T'agba ta ti de, a ma yo ogunja.

    Yep. You can indeed start again.

    One of the biggest tax losses is the black economy. That is very hard to police. Unless you make every citizen report every transaction, impossible to get a grip of. Making materials purchases illegal without an ID would be a start, when someone buys 5000 square feet of floorboards, but doesn't appear to be running a business, questions can be asked.
  13. Sasaferrato

    Sasaferrato T'agba ta ti de, a ma yo ogunja.

    Simple, you tax Amazon on payments to them, they can then sort it out with any other parties. It is time we stopped fucking about with these people, they are stealing from every citizen by failing to pay their taxes.

    Oh, and if they want to keep trading in the UK, all payments go into a UK bank account.

    If the will to get a grip of these people is there, the how can be sorted. The will is not there at the moment.
  14. So basically a higher rate of VAT?
  15. There are two big problems; the international nature of the internet and of corporations who have seized on the net to make murkier the already murky waters of their faux international businesses. Plus the people we pay to make the rules are corrupt to the core.
  16. BemusedbyLife

    BemusedbyLife Well-Known Member

    This is definitely out of order anyone who has held a senior post in government should be banned from going to the commercial sector even if that means the state gets stuck with a bigger pension bill has compensation
  17. BigTom

    BigTom Well-Known Member

    One of the ways amazon UK avoids tax is that it doesn't sell anything. It is, legally, a fulfillment/delivery company. Everything is sold by Amazon EU sarl (ignoring the marketplace sellers). Amazon UK delivers the product for Amazon EU sarl (luxembourg I think, Lichtenstein maybe), and charges Amazon EU sarl a very generous price, just about covering the costs of delivery, maybe.
    Setups like this need to be legislated against, in an "if it quacks, it's a duck" kind of way - Amazon UK is clearly an online shop selling stuff, not a delivery company. I don't know how you do this legally. Turnover tax would work (with myriad issues of its own) but as you've said, that's basically VAT, unless you can market it clearly so that it's not a tax on sales but on company income, otherwise prices will just go up to cover it, if companies can market the tax as an increase in VAT.
  18. camouflage

    camouflage Do not read this sentence.

  19. stavros

    stavros Well-Known Member

    I reckon that, in the likely event that anything is done like this, we'll hear lots of "They're being anti-success" from various parties, which the major parties seem to cower away from.
    BigTom likes this.
  20. BigTom

    BigTom Well-Known Member

    It won't happen, none of it will, the companies have too much influence/power, they will continue to be allowed to avoid tax.
  21. BigTom

    BigTom Well-Known Member

    It could be said that the success of the company is best served by paying tax which provides education and healthcare for your workforce, the roads that bring your employees to work, your supplies/products in and out and your customers to your business. And the police, courts, and fire brigade which protect you in various ways. And a load of other things I'm not going to list.
    It could be said that supporting these things without which your business would not be able to function at all would be to the benefit of its members. But not so beneficial to shareholders as fatty dividends, or to owners as debt-leveraged profit payouts set off against future tax owed.
    It won't be said though, not by anyone talking about legal duties to shareholders anyway.
    andysays likes this.
  22. bestkeptsecret

    bestkeptsecret OCP Cyborg

    Only to the point where it doesn't make you uncompetitive with those who are mitigating their tax liabilities. You can't expect businesses to take the lead on this. Government needs to reform the tax system. We shouldn't be giving the government a free pass while we chastise the business community.
  23. andysays

    andysays Defiantly non-premium member

    Not sure anyone here is seriously suggesting "giving the government a free pass"
    BigTom likes this.
  24. BigTom

    BigTom Well-Known Member

    Like andysays err says nobody is suggesting giving govt a free pass but we should not let it be acceptable for businesses to push the rules as much as possible, like that's ok because they've told us that's the rules of the game, when it doesn't need to be. Whatever govt. does (and it'll do fuck all because businesses won't let it) businesses will push those rules unless they feel it is socially unacceptable to do so.
  25. How though? Scrap business taxes for all companies, not just for the big boys as it currently is, would be one idea.
  26. bestkeptsecret

    bestkeptsecret OCP Cyborg

    Well as part of completely reworking the tax system, one idea would be to introduce a business purchase tax (BPT). This would apply to all purchases made by a business. This would negate advantages gained by inflating cost of sales figures in relation to 'buying in' goods and services from an offshore parent company to reduce UK profits to reduce UK corporation tax liabilities. This would allow for a much lower corporation tax, putting all businesses that are UK based on a level playing field with those who use global structures and offshore tax havens. As part of this you could also reform VAT completely so it becomes a tax that is only paid on purchases by individuals.
    weltweit likes this.

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