all the nutty sept 11 conspiracy theories: who thinks them up?

[fela fan]

That's a dishonest cop out, fela.

If you were so interested in finding out the truth, you'd be obliged to ask questions for yourself instead of expecting me to do it for you.

So I ask you again: if you don't subscribe to their bonkers theories, how come you never challenge them robustly here?

It's not dishonest editor mainly because that is not the kind of person i am, but perhaps it was a cop out, but for altruistic reasons.

I cannot categorically say to myself that the calls weren't faked. I cannot categorically refute any of the 'conspiracies' that have been put forward. Some i have trouble in believing, some i feel could definitely be true.

So that is one reason.

Another reason is that in my opinion all three have contributed to the debate over the couple of years in most excellent fashion. And if i have trouble accepting anything in particular they may come up with, i have no wish to tackle posters who i respect and believe do a very good job. Call it loyalty to fellow causes to like-minded people if you wish.

I have been consistent in my little corner on these debates for the last couple of years, and will remain so. I have trouble believing some of what is said, for the same reasons as you and everyone else, but i find myself having to accept it to a degree, coz it is my honest belief that elements of those in US power organised the attacks.

 

[editor]

Would a desperate Al-Qaeda terrorist see a 94 year old woman as the best target for his wee arsenal of white powder?

That kinda suggests that maybe it was a lone loon with access to anthrax rather than a government-sponsored black op, wouldn't you think?

 

[FreddyB]

Oh, governments sure can be incompetent. But not the world's only superpower to that vast degree of incompetence, no. Not in belief, too difficult to accept.

Dont you think it at all possible the fact of them being the only superpower goes some way to explaining the complacency and incompetence? I agree there is conspiracy surrounding 9/11 the discovery of the passport is blatant proof of this but I see it as a conspiracy to cover up the incompetence.

 

[fela fan]

Why bother? It'll only get hijacked by the usual fruitloop, evidence-free theorists - the ones you never ever challenge or condemn.

I realise you'd yet to read my answer to you before, but i'd like to add, why should i condemn anyone? Who the fuck am i to do that? Condemning people is an awful thing to do, just for their beliefs and opinions. It brings to mind witchhunts.

As for challenging them, hardly ever do i feel the need to. If i do, then i feel it better to decline doing so for two reasons: plenty of you do, and visciously so; and because i respect them both as posters, and for the position they come from.

 

[editor]

i have no wish to tackle posters who i respect and believe do a very good job. Call it loyalty to fellow causes to like-minded people if you wish..

And that's another feeble cop out and proof positive that you've no real interest about finding out the truth.

Discovering the truth involves hard and robust debate and questioning. Refusing to engage with people posting up bonkers evidence-free theories because you like them is a cop out of the worst kind.

 

[Idris2002]

That kinda suggests that maybe it was a lone loon with access to anthrax rather than a government-sponsored black op, wouldn't you think?

Uh-huh - though the office of Tom Daschle, who's a big time Democrat was attacked as well.

But why would say the shadow govt. behind the republicans (assuming for the sake of argument they exist) attack the toothless, spineless 'democrats', anyway?

Big crimes do sometimes lead to copy cat actions, don't they? So it could well be the case that it was a lone nut who decided to go for the big time after S11.

Ever see that Canadian film Roadkill? There's a scene where a hitchhiker talks about his ambition to become a serial killer - 'everyone says you have to go to the states to do that, but I'm going to do it right here in Canada'. Not sure why I just though of that. . .

 

[editor]

Dont you think it at all possible the fact of them being the only superpower goes some way to explaining the complacency and incompetence? I agree there is conspiracy surrounding 9/11 the discovery of the passport is blatant proof of this but I see it as a conspiracy to cover up the incompetence.

That's about if for me too.

 

[fela fan]

Dont you think it at all possible the fact of them being the only superpower goes some way to explaining the complacency and incompetence? I agree there is conspiracy surrounding 9/11 the discovery of the passport is blatant proof of this but I see it as a conspiracy to cover up the incompetence.

Oh man, there's fucking tonnes more stuff that leads me to my beliefs!

Look, i've not been idle in two years of posting here on these threads. You obviously haven't read what i've read, or you'd not have made that post.

You just sit back for one minute freddy, and just try to imagine all the things that had to go wrong that day, never mind all the intelligence from other countries that was forewarning just such a big attack on US soil.

There's just way way too much, even for the most over-complacent person/group possible.

And then one must see just how much certain elements of those in US power have benefitted so much from the attacks.

And the not so 'independent' commission.

And the fact that bush originally tried to get away without a commission, then appointed arch war criminal Kissinger!!

 

[Idris2002]

Just to show there's no hard feelings, here's a wee story from the eXile, about the former anti-terrorist operative who was killed in the Twin Towers that fateful September morn:

http://www.exile.ru/150/feature_story.html

 

[FreddyB]

Oh man, there's fucking tonnes more stuff that leads me to my beliefs!

Look, i've not been idle in two years of posting here on these threads. You obviously haven't read what i've read, or you'd not have made that post.

You just sit back for one minute freddy, and just try to imagine all the things that had to go wrong that day, never mind all the intelligence from other countries that was forewarning just such a big attack on US soil.

There's just way way too much, even for the most over-complacent person/group possible.

And then one must see just how much certain elements of those in US power have benefitted so much from the attacks.

And the not so 'independent' commission.

And the fact that bush originally tried to get away without a commission, then appointed arch war criminal Kissinger!!

Intelligence fails on bigger scales than this, Invasion of Russia and Stalin refusla to believe it was happening for instance has a catalogue of errors that make this look positively pro active for example. Sir John French's blundering into half a million German troops in 1914 because he refused to beleive his own aerial reconesence is a nother good one. People believe what they want to whether its the guy ignoring his credit card statement or the government wanting to think everythings ok, noones immune

 

[fela fan]

And that's another feeble cop out and proof positive that you've no real interest about finding out the truth.

Discovering the truth involves hard and robust debate and questioning. Refusing to engage with people posting up bonkers evidence-free theories because you like them is a cop out of the worst kind.

You're at it again, twisting my words. How can i 'like' people i don't even know? I said 'respect' editor, respect, not 'like'.

Since there's nothing left in politics i'm much interested in except finding out what happened and who was responsible for 911, it is nothing like being 'proof positive'.

I want nothing more from politics at my stage in life except to know the truth of 911. I don't expect to ever get it, but my objectives are clear and honest and i would fucking love to find out.

So you really do have a funny idea about what constitutes 'proof'.

You have consistently refused to engage with what those 'bonkers' posters say whenever they talk of stuff that can't be labelled conspiracy.

And therefore you are guilty of your own judgement on me.

 

[fela fan]

Intelligence fails on bigger scales than this, Invasion of Russia and Stalin refusla to believe it was happening for instance has a catalogue of errors that make this look positively pro active for example. Sir John French's blundering into half a million German troops in 1914 because he refused to beleive his own aerial reconesence is a nother good one. People believe what they want to whether its the guy ignoring his credit card statement or the government wanting to think everythings ok, noones immune

Freddy, you may be right, but it does not alter my beliefs.

I am not a politician, and so i'm not here to attempt to persuade folk of my beliefs. I am here to post them so folk can ignore them, agree with them, or disagree with them. Even to just consider them. Even to change their minds.

But you do mention there a series of actions.

What i cannot accept was the monumental failure of a whole series of built-in automated reactions to events taking place.

So i don't think your analogies hold water in this instance.

 

[Idris2002]

Genuine question: why should it be so improbable that automated systems should suffer a systemic failure?

After all, if you invent an idiot-proof machine, all that will happen is that someone else will invent a better idiot.

 

[editor]

You're at it again, twisting my words. How can i 'like' people i don't even know? I said 'respect' editor, respect, not 'like'.

So remind me why you never, ever challenge any of the fruitloop, evidence-free claims posted by bigfish, DrJ et al?

 

[editor]

Genuine question: why should it be so improbable that automated systems should suffer a systemic failure?

After all, if you invent an idiot-proof machine, all that will happen is that someone else will invent a better idiot.

Absolutely. Look at Concorde: the most expensive, luxurious passenger aircraft in the world, stuffed to the brink with state of the art safety systems and maintained to the very highest standards - yet destroyed by the most unexpected, yet deadly simple, of causes.

And then there's the 'sink proof' Titanic etc etc....

 

[FreddyB]

For it to work in my mind you need to show me method motive and oppurtunity. 2 of them are covered by the events that happened but only if have motive.

Theres nothing that 9/11 achieved from the USG perspective that couldn't have been achieved with less cost both in money and human lives not to mention the oh so important prestige angle.

Also if the USG are the highly organised group that you have faith in them being do you not think they would have had a better plan than the one you allude to?

If the invasion of Iraq was a planned consequence of this for example it would mean they planned it in detail years ago, the situation and handling there do not bear this out. Afghanistan is no better.


The whole thing looks like an unmitigated cock up to me.

 

[fela fan]

So remind me why you never, ever challenge any of the fruitloop, evidence-free claims posted by bigfish, DrJ et al?

What do you mean remind you? I only told you, twice, less than an hour ago.

And that would not be my choice of language for their posts.

I've seen fucking tonnes of evidence-free claims posted by those from the 'other side'.

And i can easily recall a totally fruitloop claim about how that hijacker's passport came to found in the rubble and ash completely unsinged.

That one was a corker.

 

[fela fan]

For it to work in my mind you need to show me method motive and oppurtunity. 2 of them are covered by the events that happened but only if have motive.

Theres nothing that 9/11 achieved from the USG perspective that couldn't have been achieved with less cost both in money and human lives not to mention the oh so important prestige angle.

Also if the USG are the highly organised group that you have faith in them being do you not think they would have had a better plan than the one you allude to?

Unfortunately that is definitely not my area of any kind of expertise. But over the months, bigfish has extensively written about motive and why the USG would have chosen this kind of plan over others. He has also prolifically linked his postings too. Often many posters don't read them, claiming them to be to long. [I guess that's a consequence of today's generation used to soundbites and with no time to concentrate on one thing for too long.]

As for them coming up with a better plan freddy, if they were responsible, then they've completely got away with it. Surely that constitutes a most excellent plan, no?!

 

[editor]

What do you mean remind you? I only told you, twice, less than an hour ago.

So in your quest to find 'the truth' about 9/11 you never, ever feel the need to directly challenge wild conspiracy theories because you 'respect' the posters?

Why do you respect people posting up endless evidence-free yarns, fela?

Could it be its because you agree with their bonkers claims?

And if not, why dont you challenge them?

 

[editor]

As for them coming up with a better plan freddy, if they were responsible, then they've completely got away with it. Surely that constitutes a most excellent plan, no?!

By that logic, if Mickey Mouse was responsible, then he's got completely away with it too.

Why do you think that the Middle East newspapers aren't filled with these conspiracy claims, fela?

 

[Lock&Light]

By that logic, if Mickey Mouse was responsible, then he's got completely away with it too.

Do you think Mickey Mouse was left out of the loop? He must feel hard done by considering how many thousands clearly were involved.

 

[FreddyB]

As for them coming up with a better plan freddy, if they were responsible, then they've completely got away with it. Surely that constitutes a most excellent plan, no?!

No its only a most excellent plan if bill & ted did it.

But the "we've found a passport no we haven't found a passport, we might have found a passport" thing doesn't look much like any kind of plan to me.

 

[fela fan]

So in your quest to find 'the truth' about 9/11 you never, ever feel the need to directly challenge wild conspiracy theories because you 'respect' the posters?

Why do you respect people posting up endless evidence-free yarns, fela?

Could it be its because you agree with their bonkers claims?

And if not, why dont you challenge them?

I have explained clearly, concisely, and in english.

If you continue to think what i think, then carry on mate. You just think what you've got to think. I tell you, you ignore it, so wallow in your own ideas.

Why don't i challenge them? Fucking hell, why don't you read my answers to you? All you do is ask me a question, and when i answer you, you just ask the exact same question again!!! Are you sane?

 

[fela fan]

No its only a most excellent plan if bill & ted did it.

But the "we've found a passport no we haven't found a passport, we might have found a passport" thing doesn't look much like any kind of plan to me.

Us two have reached a dead-end on this particular topic.

 

[fela fan]

Do you think Mickey Mouse was left out of the loop? He must feel hard done by considering how many thousands clearly were involved.

How do you arrive at the conclusion that 'thousands' needed to be involved? Never mind clearly arriving at this conclusion.

Now then editor, there is an example of evidence-free claims.

 

[Lock&Light]

How do you arrive at the conclusion that 'thousands' needed to be involved? Never mind clearly arriving at this conclusion.

Now then editor, there is an example of evidence-free claims.

You should stop and think, sometimes, fela.

In addition to all the people who would have had to be in on the conspiracy in the first place, I was also thinking about all the leading experts on a great many 9/11 related subjects, who have clearly been warned off, plus all the people standing on the streets of New York that day, but have, as yet, failed to come forward to report the strange missiles stuck to the bottom of the planes.

(I am, however, afraid I have to admit that my comments on Mickey Mouse were made without the weight of evidence being on my side.)

 

[Jazzz]

I have explained clearly, concisely, and in english.

If you continue to think what i think, then carry on mate. You just think what you've got to think. I tell you, you ignore it, so wallow in your own ideas.

Why don't i challenge them? Fucking hell, why don't you read my answers to you? All you do is ask me a question, and when i answer you, you just ask the exact same question again!!! Are you sane?

Attempting a discussion with editor is like wrestling a hydra, fela fan. There's no point tackling it in the normal way. Deal with one head, and it will simply regrow back; along with two others! All spitting venom.

 

[fela fan]

You should stop and think, sometimes, fela.

In addition to all the people who would have had to be in on the conspiracy in the first place, I was also thinking about all the leading experts on a great many 9/11 related subjects, who have clearly been warned off, plus all the people standing on the streets of New York that day, but have, as yet, failed to come forward to report the strange missiles stuck to the bottom of the planes.

(I am, however, afraid I have to admit that my comments on Mickey Mouse were made without the weight of evidence being on my side.)

I am always thinking mate, no need to stop and do it.

I have not talked of missiles, where did they come from?

I have talked of planes crashing into towers, hijacked by arab sorts of people, probably at the behest of OBL.

I have also wondered out loud on this forum who was behind the attacks, who planned them.

And it's my belief that elements of the US elites initiated the plan, quite possibly having OBL carry it out.

That would not need thousands to be in the know at all.

But you still made an evidence-free claim which editor hates the 'bonkers' crowd doing, but seems not to want to challenge such evidence-free claims when they come from posters who he doesn't want to challenge.

Sorry to drag you into it, but i'm just highlighting his open hypocrisy.

 

[editor]

Attempting a discussion with editor is like wrestling a hydra, fela fan. There's no point tackling it in the normal way. Deal with one head, and it will simply regrow back; along with two others! All spitting venom.

It can't be worse than trying to get you to offer a rational, credible, non-loon explanation for those 9/11 phone calls that rip your idiotic theories to little pieces.

But thanks for the personal attack anyway.
What are you going to do when I've had finally enough of all your 9/11 shit here?

 

[fela fan]

Attempting a discussion with editor is like wrestling a hydra, fela fan. There's no point tackling it in the normal way. Deal with one head, and it will simply regrow back; along with two others! All spitting venom.

I guess you'll understand readily mate when i say that he often leaves me shaking my head with incredulity.

One of my personal favourites is when he twists my words oh so nonchalently, which of course i have to point out to the forum.

The lastest one, not an hour ago was when 'like' was substituted for 'respect'.