All religious/spiritual experiences are just a trick of the mind?

[kained&able]

I have witnessed:

1) A healer healing someone by the laying on of hands.

what happened a week later after the "healer" had moved town and the endorphins of the patient and gone back to normal levels?


dave

 

[Shevek]

to people who have had these experiences themselves, they are sacred, life-transforming experiences

people who havent had these experiences themselves come up with all kinds of naive labels for them like 'trick of the mind' or 'hallucination'


which of these two views is 'true' depends entirely on whether or not you have had your own experience

Ive had some religious experiences whilst manic but wouldn't say they were life changing.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Missing lectures is not cool

Exactly which of your experiences and aspects of your social behaviour, whilst manic, could have been considered religious?

 

[weltweit]

what happened a week later after the "healer" had moved town and the endorphins of the patient and gone back to normal levels?


dave

When I was checking my story (the last time I posted about it in here) it transpired that the healed person did not react well over time. They were somehow unable to come to terms with what had happenned to them and the impression I got was that they had some kind of nervous breakdown.

The whole experience was very strange.


eta: The healer stayed put and developed quite a repute in the area, all through word of mouth.

 

[Shevek]

Missing lectures is not cool

Exactly which of your experiences and aspects of your social behaviour, whilst manic, could have been considered religious?

sorry didn't mean missing the lectures was cool. I meant my essay topic was cool and I enjoyed writing it. I had a lot of anxiety whilst at uni and at times found it hard to go out of the house.

When I was manic I had sort of religious feelings. I can't really describe it. I made friends with a muslim lad on my course and we used to meet up and talk about religious stuff. It all seemed to have great meaning at the time.

When I was psychotic I had visions of people that weren't there. After the event I didn't really feel any special significance towards the experiences.

 

[the button]

well, there are varying degrees aren't there? Mysticism and mystery are respectively discarded and embraced even within the same religion. Take the various flavours of christianity. Catholscism fetishes the mystery of the trinity, the Prods take a more austere route. Even within prod traditions we have gifts of the spirit types speaking in tongues etc. And within th Catholics we have the cynical Jesuits smoking while they pray and looking at the symbolism with an entirely un-mystical eye.

Then you have Islam, on the face of it austerity defined, but what of the sufi attempts to touch the divine?

I think the mystery question comes down to the idea of gnosis. A diest agnostic in the CofE follows teaching and prayer. Others may take a different route, and for them a 'religious experience' might happen.

I think you underestimate the austerity of certain strands of catholic spirituality. I'm thinking particularly of the "dark night of the soul" thread in Carmelite spirituality -- which, if anything, is based on a denial of the validity of religious experience. "Seek the god of consolations, not the consolations of god," as Theresa of Avila put it.

Incidentally, Jesuit spirituality is very very very experiential indeed -- the meditations of Ignatius Loyola's Spiritual Exercises being a series of 'imaginative contemplations,' aimed precisely at producing certain varieties of religious experience which -- even though they will vary from individual to individual -- have a common stamp.

From my own perspective, I've had lots of religious experiences, thanks . The point is not the experience itself, it's what you do with it. Even when I was a Jesuit, I was perfectly aware that they were due to the power of suggestion and the fact that the Spiritual Exercises are a kind of 30-day long guided mental breakdown.

 

[Shevek]

From my own perspective, I've had lots of religious experiences, thanks . The point is not the experience itself, it's what you do with it. Even when I was a Jesuit, I was perfectly aware that they were due to the power of suggestion and the fact that the Spiritual Exercises are a kind of 30-day long guided mental breakdown.

I have read 'Memories, Dreams & Reflections' by Carl Gustav Jung. His religious experiences seemed to be based on prolonged nervous breakdowns. My own manic episodes have always had a religious tone but when I am 'well' I dont really see them as that meaningful.

 

[the button]

I have read 'Memories, Dreams & Reflections' by Carl Gustav Jung. His religious experiences seemed to be based on prolonged nervous breakdowns. My own manic episodes have always had a religious tone but when I am 'well' I dont really see them as that meaningful.

In a way, the religious environment -- whether it's a formal religious order, or a looser set-up -- is a framework wherein religious experiences are validated. An environment in which the episode remains meaningful, because you don't get "well."

Of course, the last bit is where the metaphor breaks down, as I don't imagine for a second that religious experiences are pathological. Well, not all of them anyway.

 

[cesare]

I have read 'Memories, Dreams & Reflections' by Carl Gustav Jung. His religious experiences seemed to be based on prolonged nervous breakdowns. My own manic episodes have always had a religious tone but when I am 'well' I dont really see them as that meaningful.

My father was educated by the Jesuits (their harsh/austere style, as was at the time). He was (maybe still is, but not noticeably) a manic-depressive. Now that button has told me more about the Jesuitical training, I sometimes wonder whether (wittingly or not) they put the pupils through an extended version of the Spiritual Exercises - deconstruction but not always reconstruction.

 

[DotCommunist]

I think you underestimate the austerity of certain strands of catholic spirituality. I'm thinking particularly of the "dark night of the soul" thread in Carmelite spirituality -- which, if anything, is based on a denial of the validity of religious experience. "Seek the god of consolations, not the consolations of god," as Theresa of Avila put it.

Incidentally, Jesuit spirituality is very very very experiential indeed -- the meditations of Ignatius Loyola's Spiritual Exercises being a series of 'imaginative contemplations,' aimed precisely at producing certain varieties of religious experience which -- even though they will vary from individual to individual -- have a common stamp.

From my own perspective, I've had lots of religious experiences, thanks . The point is not the experience itself, it's what you do with it. Even when I was a Jesuit, I was perfectly aware that they were due to the power of suggestion and the fact that the Spiritual Exercises are a kind of 30-day long guided mental breakdown.

and isn't that quite a cynical look at gnosis, that it must be induced?

I agree that there can be austerity within the catholic framework, but is still articulated within a smells n bells framework. Fuck the very buildings one enters are designed to hammer down and remind one of ones own tiny stature.

It's a testament to the desire for gnosis that some find it in whitewashed bare chapels with a cross on the wall (no little bloke on it either)

 

[the button]

My father was educated by the Jesuits (their harsh/austere style, as was at the time). He was (maybe still is, but not noticeably) a manic-depressive. Now that button has told me more about the Jesuitical training, I sometimes wonder whether (wittingly or not) they put the pupils through an extended version of the Spiritual Exercises - deconstruction but not always reconstruction.

The headmaster of one of the Jesuit schools (Stonyhurst in Lancashire) used to say that the function of a Jesuit education was "to prepare young men for death."

A smile, a song, and a cheery wave.

 

[Shevek]

In a way, the religious environment -- whether it's a formal religious order, or a looser set-up -- is a framework wherein religious experiences are validated. An environment in which the episode remains meaningful, because you don't get "well."

Of course, the last bit is where the metaphor breaks down, as I don't imagine for a second that religious experiences are pathological. Well, not all of them anyway.

I am thinking about starting meditation at a local buddhist centre but I dont fancy going round being manic all the time. With bipolar disorder the episodes get gradually worse and worse without treatment.

 

[cesare]

The headmaster of one of the Jesuit schools (Stonyhurst in Lancashire) used to say that the function of a Jesuit education was "to prepare young men for death."

A smile, a song, and a cheery wave.

Shake them kids outta their brief period of feeling immortal and recruit em

 

[weltweit]

I am thinking about starting meditation at a local buddhist centre but I dont fancy going round being manic all the time. With bipolar disorder the episodes get gradually worse and worse without treatment.

Why would you consider stopping your meds? If you were diabetic you would keep on taking insulin, if you are bipolar you need lithium!

 

[cesare]

I am thinking about starting meditation at a local buddhist centre but I dont fancy going round being manic all the time. With bipolar disorder the episodes get gradually worse and worse without treatment.

From what you said earlier, you're self-diagnosed at the moment though?

 

[cesare]

and isn't that quite a cynical look at gnosis, that it must be induced?

I agree that there can be austerity within the catholic framework, but is still articulated within a smells n bells framework. Fuck the very buildings one enters are designed to hammer down and remind one of ones own tiny stature.

It's a testament to the desire for gnosis that some find it in whitewashed bare chapels with a cross on the wall (no little bloke on it either)

Prods are RC-lite.

 

[Shevek]

Why would you consider stopping your meds? If you were diabetic you would keep on taking insulin, if you are bipolar you need lithium!

I know. I have no plans to stop taking my meds. Two years ago I saw a specialist who told me I could 50/50 come off my meds. I tapered off them and had a manic episode. Result I now take my medication pretty much without question.

 

[Shevek]

From what you said earlier, you're self-diagnosed at the moment though?

No ive been seeing various psychiatrists from around 2001

 

[the button]

and isn't that quite a cynical look at gnosis, that it must be induced?

It would be if gnosis was the desired end result, certainly. The Spriritual Exercises are a "school of desire" (their terminology, not mine) rather than a seeking after knowledge or insight.

The 30 day retreat starts off with this, the so-called "Principle and foundation": -

Man is created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord, and by this means to save his soul.

And the other things on the face of the earth are created for man and that they may help him in prosecuting the end for which he is created.

From this it follows that man is to use them as much as they help him on to his end, and ought to rid himself of them so far as they hinder him as to it.

For this it is necessary to make ourselves indifferent to all created things in all that is allowed to the choice of our free will and is not prohibited to it; so that, on our part, we want not health rather than sickness, riches rather than poverty, honor rather than dishonor, long rather than short life, and so in all the rest; desiring and choosing only what is most conducive for us to the end for which we are created.

The desired end result is arriving at the position in the last paragraph, but with the "end for which we are created" fleshed out a bit. This process of fleshing out is entirely to do with the pursuit of certain kinds of experience (the experience of being individually called by Christ to follow him, for instance -- a very protestant idea ), rather than through 'coming to know' things.

 

[cesare]

No ive been seeing various psychiatrists from around 2001

Have you had any treatment apart from Lithium? What were the various psychiatrists doing?

 

[DotCommunist]

It would be if gnosis was the desired end result, certainly. The Spriritual Exercises are a "school of desire" (their terminology, not mine) rather than a seeking after knowledge or insight.

Interesting stuff (including the bits I excised for thread brevity).

I always took gnosis to be PROPER touching the divine, the seeking not of transitory raptures from sleep/food deprivation or mortification of teh flesh, but the falling down eyes-rolling raptures I've seen in liberal baptist churches.

Not a search for knowledge or insight, more a sufi style mania iyswim.

 

[JimW]

varieties of religious experience

Someone ought to write a book about that!

 

[Shevek]

Have you had any treatment apart from Lithium? What were the various psychiatrists doing?

Had depression around year 2000 then around 2001 had a slight manic episode for which I was hospitalised. Was put on Valproate biefly then Lithium and anti psychotics like amilsulpride. Was pretty much well, worked part time in a library and living at home but looking back probably not 100%.

Then over a period of time seeing different locum psychiatrist reduced my anti psychotics to nothing. At that point around 2004 I went anorexic, then started uni, struggled to put weight back on, struggled through uni with anxiety. Around 2006 met my partner who questioned my diagnosis.

Went to see a specialist and he suggested I reduced my medication. Then had a manic episode and was hospitalised for 4 weeks. Now take my medication all the time put back on Lithium anti psychotic combo. Have seen NHS psycholgists to help me with my mental health too.

 

[cesare]

*thread veers to gnosis = gnosis of god as a pre-requisite fail*

 

[cesare]

Had depression around year 2000 then around 2001 had a slight manic episode for which I was hospitalised. Was put on Valproate biefly then Lithium and anti psychotics like amilsulpride. Was pretty much well, worked part time in a library and living at home but looking back probably not 100%.

Then over a period of time seeing different locum psychiatrist reduced my anti psychotics to nothing. At that point around 2004 I went anorexic, then started uni, struggled to put weight back on, struggled through uni with anxiety. Around 2006 met my partner who questioned my diagnosis.

Went to see a specialist and he suggested I reduced my medication. Then had a manic episode and was hospitalised for 4 weeks. Now take my medication all the time put back on Lithium anti psychotic combo. Have seen NHS psycholgists to help me with my mental health too.

Looking back over the years since 2000/2001 - when have you felt most 'well'?

Also, do you feel ill at the moment?

 

[the button]

Interesting stuff (including the bits I excised for thread brevity).

I always took gnosis to be PROPER touching the divine, the seeking not of transitory raptures from sleep/food deprivation or mortification of teh flesh, but the falling down eyes-rolling raptures I've seen in liberal baptist churches.

Not a search for knowledge or insight, more a sufi style mania iyswim.

In which case, we may very well be talking at cross-purposes, because I take "gnosis" to mean "knowledge" (gnosis being Greek for knowledge, and that). Historically, 'gnostics' have been people who placed a greater emphasis on knowledge of the divine rather than faith.

But, since spirituality has become commoditised into 'personal development' (a process you could argue that the Jesuits started, btw), the faith vs knowledge thing has probably been collapsed to an extent. In fact, you could present the emergence of movements such as methodism as being part of this collapse of the faith/knowledge dichotomy, with Wesley's emphasis on "blessed assurance," which as far as I can make out runs, "OK, so I know it's all about faith and that, but I really do *know* that I'm saved and shit. Even though it's all about faith really, lol."

 

[the button]

Someone ought to write a book about that!

Maybe someone who could make it considerably more interesting than his brother's novels?

 

[Shevek]

Looking back over the years since 2000/2001 - when have you felt most 'well'?

Also, do you feel ill at the moment?

I don't know. I think I have been the most well when I am on a combination of Lithium and anti-psychotics. So just after my first episode 2002, 2003 and then again since my second episode. The years 2004 to 2007 were when I was probably most unwell, anxiety, hypomanic symptoms. But that was when the docors had allowed me to come off the anti-psychotics.

I dont feel ill at the moment but I do think I suffer from poor mental health in some ways. I don't know how to define it. I just think I go off on tangents, I dont think things through. I haven't got a job. Although I am quite intelligent in some ways it doesn't shine through.

My current psychiatrist has encouraged me to take a mind/body approach to my condition and get lots of exercise for example.

 

[cesare]

In which case, we may very well be talking at cross-purposes, because I take "gnosis" to mean "knowledge" (gnosis being Greek for knowledge, and that). Historically, 'gnostics' have been people who placed a greater emphasis on knowledge of the divine rather than faith.

But did the Greeks put "gnosis" in the context of religion?

 

[DotCommunist]

In which case, we may very well be talking at cross-purposes, because I take "gnosis" to mean "knowledge" (gnosis being Greek for knowledge, and that). Historically, 'gnostics' have been people who placed a greater emphasis on knowledge of the divine rather than faith.

But, since spirituality has become commoditised into 'personal development' (a process you could argue that the Jesuits started, btw), the faith vs knowledge thing has probably been collapsed to an extent. In fact, you could present the emergence of movements such as methodism as being part of this collapse of the faith/knowledge dichotomy, with Wesley's emphasis on "blessed assurance," which as far as I can make out runs, "OK, so I know it's all about faith and that, but I really do *know* that I'm saved and shit. Even though it's all about faith really, lol."

But 'knowledge' as a learning and textual analysis etc is different from to KNOW god, to touch the divine through epiphanies, induced or not.
I always saw the two as seperate