Alan Pardew's comments re Arsenal

[London_Calling]

Rather than being abusive, answer me this. If there is such little investment, why are there 40 teams competing in the FA Premier Academy's Under 18s league. Of the Premiership teams, only two, Wigan and Portsmouth, are not represented.

I am not saying that more could not be spent, but do you think that they just ignore any talent that may be out there?

You're also buying the Wenger bollcoks; Arsenal don't play a young team, in fact according to the Independent's table last Saturday, the average of their Prem players this season makes them exactly average for the Prem, if that makes sense (10th in the age-related table).

Imo, part of the reason for that is that Wenger has had a policy of not buying English youngsters - which is not the same as (a) the club he currently works for (b) trying to develop its own talent (c) because it makes financial sense, and (d) because the Premiership rules require clubs to join the acadamy system.

 

[Maltin]

You're also buying the Wenger bollcoks; Arsenal don't play a young team, in fact according to the Independent's table last Saturday, the average of their Prem players this season makes them exactly average for the Prem, if that makes sense (10th in the age-related table).

Imo, part of the reason for that is that Wenger has had a policy of not buying English youngsters - which is not the same as (a) the club he currently works for (b) trying to develop its own talent (c) because it makes financial sense, and (d) because the Premiership rules require clubs to join the acadamy system.

What are you suggesting that I have been duped by? Where did I suggest that Arsenal is a young team?

I'm totally confused about your second paragraph as well.

You seem to suggest that the team is averagely aged because Wenger doesn't buy English youngsters. Is there anything wrong with being averagely aged? Should they all be youngsters?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with points a-d as the sentence doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Jazzz]

I'm with Arsene.

If Pardew is saying that, at some point, a player from overseas should be overlooked in favour of an inferior English player - well that is precisely racial discrimination, isn't it?

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I'm with Arsene.

If Pardew is saying that, at some point, a player from overseas should be overlooked in favour of an inferior English player - well that is precisely racial discrimination, isn't it?

How can it be about race when half the English/Welsh players West Ham have are black or mixed race?

It's more like a football equivalent of protectionism...

 

[fela fan]

Yes but he has had the answer explained to him twice, even in relation to the question he is asking. He doesn't like the answer cause he can't point and cry racist.

So he keeps asking the question like it still matters.

Hence his continual 'tell me who should be replaced' argument.

The fact that he can't comprehend that perhaps the reason we don't have enough homegrown talent is a lack of investment?

No apparently that stretches his poor brain muscle a little too much.

But now, wait a minute, where do you get this info that "we don't have enough homegrown talent"??

I suggested back there that the excellent levels of homegrown talent coming through can be seen by looking at the current england squad. Plenty of young players, all looking very good. I don't see how you can say we're not getting enough. The evidence appears to say otherwise. And should we win the world cup, then you can't getter any better evidence of a healthy supply of homegrown talent.

 

[fela fan]

Imo, part of the reason for that is that Wenger has had a policy of not buying English youngsters

Well, you're opinion is skewed then mate. If that's his policy, why does he keep breaking it? Strange thing to make a policy and then continue to ingore it. Why waste the time?

 

[g force]

So what is Theo Walcott if not young and English - I imagine Arsense's been stung by the whole Pennant thing too - a spectacular waste of money and talent.

Maybe Pardew should send Aliadere back then if he's so unhappy about the influx of foreign players.

 

[jellybelly]

http://www.arsenal.com/squad.asp?thisNav=Reserves+and+Youth&lid=Reserves+Coaching+Staff&clid=4436

there's a load of young english talent coming through. in the first team squad as well.

the homegrown talent emerging for this country is incredibly healthy. more can always be done but i don't see how it's a big issue or why there's been so much time wasted on it on this thread.

 

[Fong]

But now, wait a minute, where do you get this info that "we don't have enough homegrown talent"??

I suggested back there that the excellent levels of homegrown talent coming through can be seen by looking at the current england squad. Plenty of young players, all looking very good. I don't see how you can say we're not getting enough. The evidence appears to say otherwise. And should we win the world cup, then you can't getter any better evidence of a healthy supply of homegrown talent.

I think the point he was trying to make, since it wasn't my point at all, was that we don't have enough players to replace all the foreign players in the Premiership and First Division of the same level of skill.

Not that anyone was asking to replace all the foreign players, but his instistent calling for who would replace who in the squad was basically about that.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Maybe Pardew should send Aliadere back then if he's so unhappy about the influx of foreign players.

Did Pardew actually say that there shouldn't be any foreign players in the Prem?

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

But now, wait a minute, where do you get this info that "we don't have enough homegrown talent"??

I suggested back there that the excellent levels of homegrown talent coming through can be seen by looking at the current england squad. Plenty of young players, all looking very good. I don't see how you can say we're not getting enough. The evidence appears to say otherwise. And should we win the world cup, then you can't getter any better evidence of a healthy supply of homegrown talent.

Yes, but most of that talent has come from a select few clubs and thier youth policies - mostly West Ham, Spuds, Liverpool and Man U. If all clubs followed arsenal's policy, the England team would be considerably poorer.

 

[Streathamite]

You are a twat, you want to dictate the argument to your petty level without ever trying for a moment to understand the point anyone else is making.

It isn't about replacing specific players.

It is about fostering growth in homegrown talent that can play for England.

If your point is that Wenger doesn't have enough English players to choose from, then maybe you might begin to understand the point we are making about fostering homegrown talent.

I doubt you have the intellectual maturity to make that huge a leap.

well done in completely missing the point!
let's talk economics; a homegrown player at ANY level - even youth/apprentice - costs about 3 times the price of a continental/overseas equivalent. Arsenal have a strong record for bringing young players through; of their current record only campbell (English and a Bosman), lehmann (remember, 'keepers mature late), bergkamp (an exception should be made for proven, all-time greats) and Pires WEREN'T young signings. EVERY other player was. Why this policy? for eactly the same reasons we have so few english players - money. There is a RIDICULOUS wage/transfer fee inflation in the English game, one which apparently decrees that SWP is worth twice Thierry henry, which is laughable.
Also, we tried english players. Pennant? never grew up. jeffers? not as good as even Wiltord? upson? good, but not that good.
Wenger has proven himself as the shrewdest transfer market operator around - and sheer economics have forced him down his current route.

 

[chieftain]

Arsene has made some good young signings and some shit ones just like everyone else.... Ideally he should have a couple more English players in an EPL team and its a shame he hasn't (for whatever reason)

You can't force him to sign English talent, unless the FA make it a rule to include some home talent... whickh knowing the FA would end up a disaster for everyone

 

[Balbi]

Maybe Pardew should send Aliadere back then if he's so unhappy about the influx of foreign players.

Better pull you up on this, and shame on you RenagadeDog for not knowing.

Jeremie Aliadiere is on loan at Wolves. Pardew sent him back.

 

[London_Calling]

I'm totally confused about your second paragraph as well.

I'm just going to blame that post on the consequences of an eventful weekend and ask that we move along . . . .

 

[fela fan]

Yes, but most of that talent has come from a select few clubs and thier youth policies - mostly West Ham, Spuds, Liverpool and Man U. If all clubs followed arsenal's policy, the England team would be considerably poorer.

What is that policy?

 

[iROBOT]

In amonst all of this people are forgeting that with the arrival of Chelski, the pressure on price on the domestic front is very high. There's no way the likes of Arsenal can afford a defender for 30mil (RF) or a teenager at 25mil (WR), or a midfielder at 21mil (SRW) we are not that rich. Maybe in a few years time with the revenue from the new stadium, but not just yet.

And there's been plenty of "english" yoof going through the ranks just very few have cut it. T

 

[mattie]

I'm with Arsene.

If Pardew is saying that, at some point, a player from overseas should be overlooked in favour of an inferior English player - well that is precisely racial discrimination, isn't it?

Protectionism, perhaps. For example, in both rugby and Cricket there is a push to use the counties/regions/club sides as feeders for the natonal team - if I understand it correctly, cricket counties receive payments which are in part based upon the quantity of Englaind internationals they provide. Thus, the national league is a route for developing players for the national side. If there are no native players in these national leagues, then the national team would necessarily suffer. (This is something of a bone of contention in Rugby, where they've messed up the move to profesionalism pretty badly, the clubs getting in many cases quite a raw deal.) To deal with this, the cricket governing bodies have limited the number of overseas players in order to provide opportunities to young English players. I'm not convinced of the success of this, but it is easy to see that it is not intended as a racist measure.

Arsenal are free to select who they wish, but it comes down to how we celebate it - that was the key part of Pardew's comment: "I saw a headline saying Arsenal are flying the flag for Britain. I kind of wondered where that British involvement actually was when I looked at their team."

This bit is hypothetical, but I include it to illustrate how you might interpret Pardew's comments. Essentially, as a West Ham fan I support Arsenal (and all British club teams) in Europe as they're a British/English (the distinction is unimportant) team and I therefore have some identity with them. Except, aside from geographical location, they're no longer an English team as there are no English players in it. Why should we view Arsenal as a bastion of English club football in European competition, and why should we all support them?* It all depends upon whether you view the team Arsenal, or the players in the Arsenal team, as the representatives of English football. Pardew obvously views it as the players.

I'm not sure how I read Pardew when he refers to the 'soul' of English football, he loses me slightly at that point. By the same token, Wenger touting the idea that Pardew's comments were racist seems disingenuous - it seems to deliberately take Pardew's comments in the worst possible light.

* ignoring any vested interests regarding Arsenal's sucess opening up European opportunities for other club sides.

 

[jellybelly]

for me, they are still a british club and are still flying the flag etc because of the hundreds of thousands of arsenal supporters who are british.
now i'm not sure you'll all agree with this but surely it's the fans who define what a club is. there's so many of them and they all share the same bond which grows over the years of agony and ecstasy. they also represent their clubs in front of their friends, rubbing things in or defending certain decisions etc arsenal fans will have the spotlight on them within their little groups for the juventus match and their friends will decide to back them up or make snide remarks....

this is what football is. the everyday reality between you and your mates. the soap operas in the press you have to put up with, the lazy player that has you screaming at the tele etc. arsenal are flying the flag because there's god knows how many gooners wishing them on and they are british.

this may be a tangent but it needs to be remembered.

 

[kained&able]

Micheal carrick and kevin nolan are tweo players that arsenal should go in for. Also i would perfer defoe in the arse squad to most of the current strikers.

To be honest though there aren't that many availible eglish players for decent money at the minute, spurs bought all of em!


dave

 

[tommers]

I think Mattie has got this right.

pardew was actually saying that he had read Arsenal being described as "flying the flag for english football" when in fact they had no english (or british for that matter) players in their team.

he then asked the question "how does this make them english?".

Wenger then called him a racist.

g force: aliadiere was sent back ages ago, he has since been on loan to celtic and is now at wolves.

cos he's rubbish.

 

[kained&able]

nah you got it wrong he came to us from celtic.


Pardew has also said if he managed a portuguese team he would insist on protugeezers making up the spine of the team.

so fair fucking play, and fuck you mr wenger.



dave

 

[tommers]

nah you got it wrong he came to us from celtic.

you're right. I got confused.....

 

[jellybelly]

well done in completely missing the point!
let's talk economics; a homegrown player at ANY level - even youth/apprentice - costs about 3 times the price of a continental/overseas equivalent. Arsenal have a strong record for bringing young players through; of their current record only campbell (English and a Bosman), lehmann (remember, 'keepers mature late), bergkamp (an exception should be made for proven, all-time greats) and Pires WEREN'T young signings. EVERY other player was. Why this policy? for eactly the same reasons we have so few english players - money. There is a RIDICULOUS wage/transfer fee inflation in the English game, one which apparently decrees that SWP is worth twice Thierry henry, which is laughable.
Also, we tried english players. Pennant? never grew up. jeffers? not as good as even Wiltord? upson? good, but not that good.
Wenger has proven himself as the shrewdest transfer market operator around - and sheer economics have forced him down his current route.

spot on jezza.

here is another example of football economics at work. fabregas has been nurtured and brought into the limelight by wenger, and if he wants, the boy can be sold for big bucks

 

[potential]

spot on jezza.

here is another example of football economics at work. fabregas has been nurtured and brought into the limelight by wenger, and if he wants, the boy can be sold for big bucks

wasnt fabregas poached from barca ???
there was a rule in spanish football that you couldnt pre-sign players
under 16-18yrs in their league ?
so wenger signed him brought all his family over in some big house
in hampstead ?
barca went ballistic and complained to uefa, but small print didnt
dictate poaching from outside of spanish league ???
this is only from memory so tell me if im wrong ???

 

[Jazzz]

Protectionism, perhaps. For example, in both rugby and Cricket there is a push to use the counties/regions/club sides as feeders for the natonal team - if I understand it correctly, cricket counties receive payments which are in part based upon the quantity of Englaind internationals they provide. Thus, the national league is a route for developing players for the national side. If there are no native players in these national leagues, then the national team would necessarily suffer.
<...>

I don't agree with that argument, our national squad seems as strong as ever to me, but Pardew didn't make it; he was just talking about the league.

 

[jellybelly]

wasnt fabregas poached from barca ???
there was a rule in spanish football that you couldnt pre-sign players
under 16-18yrs in their league ?
so wenger signed him brought all his family over in some big house
in hampstead ?
barca went ballistic and complained to uefa, but small print didnt
dictate poaching from outside of spanish league ???
this is only from memory so tell me if im wrong ???

exactly right. that's economics for you. and if he goes to madrid that'll complete the circle

 

[potential]

exactly right. that's economics for you. and if he goes to madrid that'll complete the circle

its not exactly nurturing thou is it, only good for dave deins bank balance.
i remember when everton played wengers youngsters and all the
press were raving about them , and david moyes said you can
go on about how they beat my first team but all these kids cost more than my first team, alot more

 

[jellybelly]

its not exactly nurturing thou is it, only good for dave deins bank balance.
i remember when everton played wengers youngsters and all the
press were raving about them , and david moyes said you can
go on about how they beat my first team but all these kids cost more than my first team, alot more

most likely they'll be sold for a lot more.

 

[hammerntongues]

Clearly you will never get a Gooner to disagree with Wenger and its a safe bet that those posters going so are Gooners .

Would I be doing the same thing if I had just had years of success in the domestic scene ? Of course I would and so would every other fan of any other club.

West ham have arguably the best Junior academy in the league and we have won precisely nothing with them, whilst wealthier teams can just go out and buy the finished article the bigger clubs are not going to spend money nurturing young talent .

The same happens in other businesses all the time it should be no surprise that it happens in the " business " of football.