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Al-Respeq & sleazy strip bars: Islamo-Trottery finds a cause

Perhaps you're being inadvertently misunderstood JHE, but you do tend to come across as an obsessive bigot on anything to do with muslims. If you actually aren't such a bigot, or at least don't want to be seen as one, you might want to rethink your approach a bit.
 
No Social Worker or other al-Respeq-ite has explained how the policy on perv-bars fits together with the policy on brothels.

Is it:

1. No pole-dancing, but lots of prostitution in really nice brothels, including in Tower Hamladesh?

or

2. No pole-dancing or prostitution in Tower Hamladesh, but pervvy stuff is OK elsewhere?


Come on, Islamo-Trots. Explain yourselves.
 
Leaving aside all the crap on this thread and JHEs usual rants it would be interesting to know what the SWPs stance on this is.

I know the SWP stands for the legalisation of prostitution, if so why would you support banning legalised strip bars. Surely it's better if it's legalised and sex worker have trade union rights rather than illegal ones and women being forced into the back streets.

I never got that in the Sheffield stuff a few years back when the SWP supported closing down a Spearmint Rhinos (probably, whatever all its faults, the top end of the sex industry where the workers get more money and security) but supported legalising brothels.

nwnm states about the positions of feminists, but the SWP (unless it has drastically changed its positions) always had a critical stance about feminist positions and put forward a revolutionary socialist position for these kinda issues.

Obviously it doesn't need stating that the sex industry is vial and mysoginistic, but in terms of the solutions I doubt very much that Galloway and the SWP have the same views. So will RESPECT councillors who are in the SWP (there are 2 or 3 aren't there?) take the SWP line of legalised brothels? And if you're fighting for legalised brothels, why does't that apply to strip bars? (obviously you to take into account local communities in terms of where they will be, but I mean as a point of principal).
 
cockneyrebel said:
nwnm states about the positions of feminists, but the SWP (unless it has drastically changed its positions) always had a critical stance about feminist positions and put forward a revolutionary socialist position for these kinda issues.

What was the "revolutionary socialist position for these kinda issues"?

...councillors who are in the SWP (there are 2 or 3 aren't there?)...

Come off it, Cock. There is one. He was elected in Preston on a Socialist Alliance ticket, though with the help of the local imam - so his was a sort of proto-Respeq campaign.
 
What was the "revolutionary socialist position for these kinda issues"?

Not the same as the feminist stance (although feminist is obviously used in many different ways). As said I think the SWP supports the legalisation of brothels and trade unions for sex workers, which a lot of feminists would disagree with.

There is one. He was elected in Preston on a Socialist Alliance ticket

Not true. Since getting elected I think at least 2 or 3 RESPECT councillors have joined the SWP.
 
cockneyrebel said:
Not the same as the feminist stance (although feminist is obviously used in many different ways). As said I think the SWP supports the legalisation of brothels and trade unions for sex workers, which a lot of feminists would disagree with.

Well, yes, as I have said, they do support the legalisation of brothels. I can't see how that is either socialist or revolutionary, but it may nevertheless be sensible. The odd thing, as you know, is that (i) they favour brothels but (ii) oppose perv-bars in Tower Hamladesh and leaflet mosques to promote the fact.

Not true. Since getting elected I think at least 2 or 3 RESPECT councillors have joined the SWP.

Who? Where? Name and shame.
 
I don't know what RESPECT councillors joined the SWP (that's why I was asking), but I read ages ago that 2 or 3 had joined, don't know if any more have since. Does anyone in the SWP know?

Also your totally out of order in your muslim baiting. All this "Hamladesh" crap, why not start making up other amusing names for places like Brixton. It's so funny after all.
 
cockneyrebel said:
Leaving aside all the crap on this thread and JHEs usual rants it would be interesting to know what the SWPs stance on this is.

I know the SWP stands for the legalisation of prostitution, if so why would you support banning legalised strip bars. Surely it's better if it's legalised and sex worker have trade union rights rather than illegal ones and women being forced into the back streets.

I never got that in the Sheffield stuff a few years back when the SWP supported closing down a Spearmint Rhinos (probably, whatever all its faults, the top end of the sex industry where the workers get more money and security) but supported legalising brothels.

nwnm states about the positions of feminists, but the SWP (unless it has drastically changed its positions) always had a critical stance about feminist positions and put forward a revolutionary socialist position for these kinda issues.

Obviously it doesn't need stating that the sex industry is vial and mysoginistic, but in terms of the solutions I doubt very much that Galloway and the SWP have the same views. So will RESPECT councillors who are in the SWP (there are 2 or 3 aren't there?) take the SWP line of legalised brothels? And if you're fighting for legalised brothels, why does't that apply to strip bars? (obviously you to take into account local communities in terms of where they will be, but I mean as a point of principal).

IIRC the GMB represent Spearmint Rhino workers. What do Respect members think of this?

BarryB
 
What is the differene between getting your kit of in a sleazy pub and getting your kit off in an aventgarde play? How close is this comming to censorship....

And does male prostitution need to remain banned because it demeans men?
 
JHE said:
...
Come off it, Cock. There is one. He was elected in Preston on a Socialist Alliance ticket, though with the help of the local imam - so his was a sort of proto-Respeq campaign.

I heard a couple of the Tower Hamlets councillors had joined the SWP. Dunno if it's true or not though.

The one in Preston also had the support of the local Baptist minister. I suppose that makes him the only Christian-Muslim-Atheist trot councillor in the country, if not the world. :rolleyes: In the neighbouring seat, where hindus are the largest minority, Respect had a poster outside the temple and more than a few supporters inside. So I suppose that makes it a Christian-Muslim-Atheist-Hindu alliance ... Hmmm, but where people of all faiths support a political party what do you call that? Oh yes, democracy ...
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Perhaps you're being inadvertently misunderstood JHE, but you do tend to come across as an obsessive bigot on anything to do with muslims. If you actually aren't such a bigot, or at least don't want to be seen as one, you might want to rethink your approach a bit.
Mm. Yes.
 
JHE said:
Slavery and slave-fucking is not sexual exploitation. It is God's will.

Not in my view but since you say it is, I suppose you describe a situation that is commonplace in your life.

By the way, your translitterated "Arabic" could use some education, but I appreciate the effort.

salaam.
 
It doesn't mean a lot. It's a derogatory term for certain activities by the Socialist Workers Party (and fellow travellers) in co-operating and dealing with various Islamic groups or figures or communities. The implication is that they are "selling out" socialist, secularist principles for minor electoral benefit.

It's worth bearing in mind that the SWP comes in for a lot of attack generally from other factions and individuals independent of this; until fairly recently this forum was full of insulting threads about them. Thus one might like to look at it in the context of those as well.

I think that's a pretty fair summary without my saying which bits I personally think are bollocks... I could be wrong.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
It doesn't mean a lot. It's a derogatory term for certain activities by the Socialist Workers Party (and fellow travellers) in co-operating and dealing with various Islamic groups or figures or communities. The implication is that they are "selling out" socialist, secularist principles for minor electoral benefit.

I don't follow internal UK politcs but I suppose the SWP is more or less the same as a Socialist Party elswhere? I find it interesting that Muslims in my mother's country (I'm not enough informed on others to know if it is a EU-trend) vote socialist. Personally I can't connect with that.

salaam.
 
Is it like impossible to have national policy on an issue which deviates from the rule in localised circumstances? Are we not supposed to play a tactical, electoral game with Respect as a parliamentary party? Would you rather us turn up at Stop the War conferences with motions on the formation of worker's revolutionary committees like the Revvo's did last time?

I think you already know what the SWP's line on this issue is. Don't be an arse.
 
nwnm said:
I'm not against women having the freedom to take their clothes off, and find the practice quite enjoyable in the right circumstances ;) . What I object to <as do feminists> is women demeaning themselves, and for crap wages, just so some daft git with more money than sense gets to feel he 'owns' her for a while, and some other sleazy bastard makes a shed load of cash out of the desperation of others

respect piece here -
http://www.respectcoalition.org/?ite=1280

yes, so do a lot of people - but supporting a state ban on it? Christ, you've lost the plot.
 
mk12 said:
yes, so do a lot of people - but supporting a state ban on it? Christ, you've lost the plot.

So a local council trying to reduce the number of these clubs is a 'state ban'?

U seem to be happy to take what boils down to a libertarian position.
 
Is it like impossible to have national policy on an issue which deviates from the rule in localised circumstances? Are we not supposed to play a tactical, electoral game with Respect as a parliamentary party? Would you rather us turn up at Stop the War conferences with motions on the formation of worker's revolutionary committees like the Revvo's did last time?

I think you already know what the SWP's line on this issue is. Don't be an arse.

Is that last comment aimed at me? If so, why the needless aggression, why do you have to come every thread and be so narchy?

No-one has actually answered my question. The SWP supports legalising prostitution and having legal brothels. So why do you want to shut down something like Spearmint Rhinos, which with all its flaws, is the top end of the sex industry in terms of workers rights and security for the women who work there.

And also what will be the position of the SWP councillors in Tower Hamlets? Do you have the position of on one hand legalising prostitution and brothels and on the other hand shutting down strip bars in Tower Hamlets? Seems a bit of a bizarre position to have if that's the case.

And what is RESPECTs position on prostitution, does it have a position of legalising it?
 
cockneyrebel said:
Is that last comment aimed at me? If so, why the needless aggression, why do you have to come every thread and be so narchy?

No-one has actually answered my question. The SWP supports legalising prostitution and having legal brothels. So why do you want to shut down something like Spearmint Rhinos, which with all its flaws, is the top end of the sex industry in terms of workers rights and security for the women who work there.

And also what will be the position of the SWP councillors in Tower Hamlets? Do you have the position of on one hand legalising prostitution and brothels and on the other hand shutting down strip bars in Tower Hamlets? Seems a bit of a bizarre position to have if that's the case.

And what is RESPECTs position on prostitution, does it have a position of legalising it?

I think (after a few beers and some red wine) that being in favour of the legalisation of prostitution does not entail being in favour of having bloody spearmint rhino ( or whatever) branches, and posters advertising them, every bloody where. I think that efforts to control this part of the 'leisure industry' are most definitely not out of order.

Somehow, (and I'm not sure how) there has to be a balance between advocating an outright ban (which means the sex trade goes underground with all of the massive problems that that entails) and a position that, in effect, becomes a free for all.

Obviously giving support (in every sense, union rightesetc) to women who are taking part in the sex industry is part of this, but that ain't all. It isn't just a job like any other imo.

On Respect's position on prostitution, I'm not sure what (if any) policy has been passed, but Salma Yaqoob on Question time basically came out in favour of the legalisation that was being proposed, on the basis that the women needed some legal status/protection.

I guess we need a revolution that smashes bourgeois sexual commodification. But in the mean time....
 
mutley said:
So a local council trying to reduce the number of these clubs is a 'state ban'?
When all else fails, resort to being pedantic. :rolleyes:

A local council is the local arm of the bourgeoise state, as you well know.
 
I think (after a few beers and some red wine) that being in favour of the legalisation of prostitution does not entail being in favour of having bloody spearmint rhino ( or whatever) branches, and posters advertising them, every bloody where. I think that efforts to control this part of the 'leisure industry' are most definitely not out of order.

Obviously everyone (or at least the big majority) on here recognises the sex industry to be mysgoinistic and vile in nearly all its forms (I say nearly all because I doubt anyone could say that about chippendales who have a good job all in all, which shows, on some level, that the sex industry is mysoginistic and vile because of capitalism, rather than being intrinsically the case. Who knows what kinda sex industry, if any, you'd have in a socialist society, but I wouldn't automatically say you'd have none).

But the irony of what you're saying is that spearmint rhino is the top end of the sex industry, where the women get paid the most and get the most security and even union recognition in some places. Yet you're saying you want to shut these places down and possibly drive these women into more sleazy unregulated strip bars or even prostitution. Where is the logic of this? You either support legalisation of prostitution and the sex industry or you don't. That obviously doesn't mean that communities should have to suffer a free for all of sex shops, brothels and strip bars (and that applies to many industries) but at the same time why zone in on the best bit of the sex industry in terms of women's rights, when there are so many other horrific parts of the sex industry to concentrate on. Not least the scum who are pimps who operate because of prostitution being illegal and also in non-legal strip bars.

I guess we need a revolution that smashes bourgeois sexual commodification. But in the mean time....

Don't be ridiculous, no-one is saying this and plenty of people who support the legalisation of prostitution aren't revolutionaries. But that aside I think this is another instance where RESPECT is a bit weak. It's no good quoting a single representative of RESPECT, surely RESPECT should agree an stance on something like this, espeically given you're having a campaign on it in Tower Hamlets. Surely the national committee in RESPECT should come up with some kind of RESPECT policy given that this is the case.

So I'll ask again, why do the SWP ask for a Spearmint Rhinos in Sheffield to be shut down given how many other bits of the sex industry are so much worse.

And given RESPECT, apparently, have no policy on this and are making it up as they go along in Tower Hamlets, what would the Tower Hamlets councillors who are SWP members have to say about this, have they said anything?

The fact is that you can say that you support the women who work in those industries in every sense, but the only way to give workers in the sex industry union and legal rights is to legalise the sex industry. Questions of planning issues and how many places you have per square mile or whatever are a secondary question.

I somehow doubt that if prostitution and strip bars were legalised that it would suddenly mean that every other shop down your local high street will then be a brothel or spearmint rhinos, that's certainly not the case in Holland.
 
cockneyrebel said:
Is that last comment aimed at me? If so, why the needless aggression, why do you have to come every thread and be so narchy?

No-one has actually answered my question. The SWP supports legalising prostitution and having legal brothels. So why do you want to shut down something like Spearmint Rhinos, which with all its flaws, is the top end of the sex industry in terms of workers rights and security for the women who work there.

And also what will be the position of the SWP councillors in Tower Hamlets? Do you have the position of on one hand legalising prostitution and brothels and on the other hand shutting down strip bars in Tower Hamlets? Seems a bit of a bizarre position to have if that's the case.

And what is RESPECTs position on prostitution, does it have a position of legalising it?

It was actually supposed to be directed at JHE - as far as I can see, the SWP doesn't have a particular stance upon legalising brothels or prostition as it isn't a parliamentary organisation looking to set policy.
 
It was actually supposed to be directed at JHE - as far as I can see, the SWP doesn't have a particular stance upon legalising brothels or prostition as it isn't a parliamentary organisation looking to set policy.

If it was aimed at JHE I can understand you being pissed off given the amount of muslim baiting that goes on.

Of course the SWP takes a stance on issues that involve legislation - the minimum wage, trade union rights, civil rights etc etc

And as far as I know the SWP has the stance of legalising prostitution.
 
I support legalising prostitution and brothels. I most certainly support the unionisation of 'sex workers.'

I oppose the commodification of sex, but do not support state bans of e.g. prostitution, strip clubs, pornography. All of these things though are a distorted expression of sexuality and are highly exploitative.

I lived in Hoxton when the sexploitation strip pubs/clubs serving the pissed up arsehole twenty somethings from the city started to creep into the area bringing shootings and vomit and...pissed up aresoles from the city. I would certainly have favoured a campaign to minimise the amount of such clubs and pubs in the area. That's not a state ban, and I see no contradiction.

Bizzarly amidst all this the Tories on the council campaigned to close a jazz club (the Bluenote) or rather to stop an extension of openning which meant the club would close, arguing that they opposed the 'night-time culture'.

Anyway, seems to me that the Tower Hamlets Respect motion was very carefully worded and that the demands within it have not actually been opposed by anyone on this thread. Opposition has simply been on the basis that either the motion says something it clearly doesn't, that the SWP are involved in Respect and (as far as the o/per is concerned) most disturbing of all there are Muslims around.:rolleyes:
 
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