Al Qaeida, The CIA, Mujahadeen etc

[Dillinger4]

the Mujahadeen became the Taliban after they defeated Russia in Afghansitan. And they were funded mainly by Ronald Reagan administration.

The Taliban and Al-Queada are totally seperate entities with seperate motivations. The Taliban are locals who do not want any intervention from any foreign power in their region. Al-Queada is just anti-american and has little to do with the Taliban. They are two different animals. )\

Detroit City, you are the last person to give any lessons in History or Politics.

I know where the Mujahadeen came from.

I know that Al Queda and the Taleban are distinct. The key word is distinct. They are not totally separate, and there is overlap between the two.

It is simply not as simple to say that the Taleban are just locals and that Al-Queda are simply anti-american. That is an over simplification that clouds the issue rather than revealing any truth.

 

[Detroit City]

Detroit City, you are the last person to give any lessons in History or Politics.

I know where the Mujahadeen came from.

I know that Al Queda and the Taleban are distinct. The key word is distinct. They are not totally separate, and there is overlap between the two.

It is simply not as simple to say that the Taleban are just locals and that Al-Queda are simply anti-american. That is an over simplification that clouds the issue rather than revealing any truth.

actually you have no idea what you're talking about....we will see what others say

 

[isitme]

the Mujahadeen became the Taliban after they defeated Russia in Afghansitan. And they were funded mainly by Ronald Reagan administration.

The Taliban and Al-Queada are totally seperate entities with seperate motivations. The Taliban are locals who do not want any intervention from any foreign power in their region. Al-Queada is just anti-american and has little to do with the Taliban. They are two different animals. )\

I thnk the Taliban was a section of the Mujahadeen that took power rather than the same organisation

Although it's true (ostensibly lol) that the Taliban and Al-Qaeida are different organisations, I would imagine that there was a lot of crossover between the two. Considering that both organisations are funded by the same people, have been working together for many years, and have fairly similar aims

This is what I was saying about the CIA, while the official line is that they left just after the Soviets, I thnk it's far more likely that they would have stayed on and had agents involved in the Taliban and consequently Al-Qaeida

 

[Dillinger4]

actually you have no idea what you're talking about....we will see what others say

That is quite a claim, having read some of your posts recently.

 

[Dillinger4]

So you think the Taleban and Al Queda are entirely separate? That if you were a member of The Taliban, that excluded you from being a member of Al Queda?

Are you saying the Taliban was purely Afghani's, and that no members of the former Mujahadeen were allowed to govern?

Is that what you are saying?

 

[Dillinger4]

This is what I was saying about the CIA, while the official line is that they left just after the Soviets, I thnk it's far more likely that they would have stayed on and had agents involved in the Taliban and consequently Al-Qaeida

I don't think anybody would claim that they simply left Afghanistan.

I think its more of the case that Afghanistan at that time became less of a strategic priority after the cold war, and thus they were not dealt with directly but through the ISI, or other middle eastern intelligence agencies.

Things became more difficult as the Taleban became more isolated and hostile.

 

[Dillinger4]

My point being that the problems occurred because the attention of the US was turned away from Afghanistan.

 

[isitme]

I don't think anybody would claim that they simply left Afghanistan.

I think its more of the case that Afghanistan at that time became less of a strategic priority after the cold war, and thus they were not dealt with directly but through the ISI, or other middle eastern intelligence agencies.

Things became more difficult as the Taleban became more isolated and hostile.

That doesn't make sense to me tho, Afghanistan and their friends in Saudi never stopped causing problems for America. It wasn't on the news in the 90s, but it wasn't like the problems ever went away, same as with Israel or Iran I would guess that the CIA and so on would always have a keen interest in the place since as you said it was becoming more and more isolated and hostile, it was inevitable something would happen eventually

With hindsight, maybe Monica Legwinsky was a distraction from the missile attacks on Afghanistan rather than the other way around

 

[CyberRose]

Papa's got a brand new Baghdad

 

[CyberRose]

Anyway, Dillinger4 is right

 

[Dillinger4]

It is difficult to discuss something so broad in such simple terms.

There is no doubt the US funded the Mujahadeen, but I would be more wary in any kind of claim that the US/CIA 'created' Al-Queda or The Taliban. The way I see it, they emerged from elements of the Mujahadeen, as a reaction against other elements of the Mujahadeen, which later became the Northern Alliance.

 

[CyberRose]

I heard bin Laden was at the Emirates tonight and was fuming with the last minute equaliser

In fact, I heard the CIA rented a box out especially for him

 

[isitme]

I suppose it's how far you want to go down the road of supposition

Like I said before, the fact that Al-Qaeida and the Taliban are so closely connected with the Saudis who are in turn closely connected with people in the upper echelons of the CIA and so on does make me pretty dubious

but it does start going into David Icke territory at that point because it's all based on a guess at the end of the day

we'll definetely know in 2012 anyway

 

[Dillinger4]

The transformation of Afghanistan from policy success to failure stems from two related causes: an overestimation of Soviet power during the Cold War and an underestimation of U.S. interests after the Soviets withdrew.

But then our enemy departed. With the Soviets gone, the United States saw little reason to focus on this poor and distant land. We left our erstwhile friends to their own devices, assuming that their squabbles and actions would remain confined to the mountains and valleys of Afghanistan.

As the United States departed, a vicious civil war spread throughout the country. Once the Soviet-backed regime fell, war, anarchy, and fragmentation followed.

With Pakistan’s support, the Taliban (Islamic Student) movement emerged in 1994. The movement began in Kandahar and consisted of disgruntled former mujahedin and students of Islamic studies from schools located in Pakistan along the Afghan border.

from here

http://www.twq.com/winter00/231Byman.pdf

And a load more links here, if you want to have a browse.

http://www.ecu.edu/lib/govdoc/afghanistan.cfm

 

[isitme]

this is what happens when i listen to immortal technique

 

[Dillinger4]

I suppose it's how far you want to go down the road of supposition

Like I said before, the fact that Al-Qaeida and the Taliban are so closely connected with the Saudis who are in turn closely connected with people in the upper echelons of the CIA and so on does make me pretty dubious

but it does start going into David Icke territory at that point because it's all based on a guess at the end of the day

we'll definetely know in 2012 anyway

The problem is that you are looking at it with hindsight.

In 1995, Islamism did not seem like much of a problem.

 

[isitme]

The problem is that you are looking at it with hindsight.

In 1995, Islamism did not seem like much of a problem.

maybe

i just don't look at Islamism as the cause of what happened in Afghanistan and turned into what happened to America. Super rich people who are into wars and can afford to start them have always been a problem....

there are plenty of regimes and organisations as fucked up as Al-Qaeida, but not many that could afford to keep fighting them for 7 years

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

The CIA is a prime sponsor of terror and tyranny post WW2. Not conspiracy. Documentable fact.

AQ is a CIA creation. Not conspiracy. Documentable fact.

 

[CyberRose]

Like I said before, the fact that Al-Qaeida and the Taliban are so closely connected with the Saudis who are in turn closely connected with people in the upper echelons of the CIA and so on does make me pretty dubious

Depends which Saudi Arabia you mean. The US is close to the "international" side of the Saudi government, but the deadly enemy of the religious side of the Saudi government (but they never say so for fear of damaging the lucrative relations with the "good" side of the Saudi government)

 

[Dillinger4]

AQ is a CIA creation. Not conspiracy. Documentable fact.

Its not quite as straight forward as that.

 

[CyberRose]

AQ is a CIA creation. Not conspiracy. Documentable fact.

It's not a documentable fact tho, is it?

 

[isitme]

Depends which Saudi Arabia you mean. The US is close to the "international" side of the Saudi government, but the deadly enemy of the religious side of the Saudi government (but they never say so for fear of damaging the lucrative relations with the "good" side of the Saudi government)

do you really think it's that simple tho?

politics is one thing, but common interests is another, i always imagine it a bit like how 'the US' used to 'hate' the labour party in the 80s. but if labour had won an election they wouldn't have hated them.

it always strikes me that it always ends up as business rather than anything else. I'm sure that they don't like each other 'personally', but I don't think that they would be 'deadly enemies' if it actually came to the crunch.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

It's not a documentable fact tho, is it?

Al Qaeda means "the base" as in "database" - the CIA database of their terrorist proteges. This is fairly common knowledge.

Google "Al Quaeda database".

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Its not quite as straight forward as that.

The fact that OBL was a CIA asset is very straight forward. The collosal links between Bushes and bin Ladens are very straight forward. Bush Snr ran the CIA of course.

 

[Dillinger4]

It doesn't really mean database, does it?

 

[Dillinger4]

The fact that OBL was a CIA asset is very straight forward. The collosal links between Bushes and bin Ladens are very straight forward. Bush Snr ran the CIA of course.

*yawn*

 

[darkfibre]

It doesn't really mean database, does it?

Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians

So said Robin Cook, a month before he died from a heart attack on a Scottish mountain.

 

[Dillinger4]

So said Robin Cook, a month before he died from a heart attack on a Scottish mountain.

So what? there are loads of other people saying other things.

And what does his death have to do with anything?

 

[Dillinger4]

for example

Notes of a meeting of bin Laden and others on August 20, 1988 indicate "the military base" ("al-qaeda al-askariya"), was a formal group: `basically an organized Islamic faction, its goal is to lift the word of God, to make His religion victorious.`

and there are loads of other suggestions as well. With the suggestion that it originates from the word 'database' being one of the less credible ones.

 

[Dillinger4]

Osama bin Laden explained the origin of the term in a videotaped interview with Al Jazeera journalist Tayseer Alouni in October 2001:

“ The name 'al-Qaeda' was established a long time ago by mere chance. The late Abu Ebeida El-Banashiri established the training camps for our mujahedeen against Russia's terrorism. We used to call the training camp al-Qaeda. The name stayed.[29]

.