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Agreements between Parents and Schools

ViolentPanda said:
Oh look, another patented "Gmarthews shifts the goalposts" moment!! :)
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and with it the claim that there are problems attracting quality people in the teaching profession...( he aint wrong eh!?) and the thing that prompted his change of goalpost? Being asked to substantiate what hes claiming.
Ah so he's frpom the "Im the teacher, believe me, Im right" school of teaching.

Hes also overlooking the fact that the government are forcing parents to use schools as free childcare due to their benefits and tax credits policies and those aimed at single parents particularly but as always with Gmarthews its always the parents or the childrens fault...
 
Of course it is not always the parents and children's fault. Please excuse her slight exaggeration there.

It is not always the teacher/school's fault, either.

The important thing is communication and the parents and schools putting up a united front in the effort to give them an education.
 
Unconditional support of the parents may be what schools want, but it often isn't the right thing for the child.

Putting up an illusion of a united front when a child is being punished for having problems with writing that need addressing with special needs assistance, is going to seriously damage the relationship between child and parent and the self esteem of the child. In situations where the school is failing to address the needs of the child, there is no way in hell a good parent should do anything else other than tell the child that they will support them and get the school to get their act together.
 
Sure, but letting fear of this split up a united front should not happen. Meetings behind closed doors etc.

I have a friend who is dyslexic and he was never told by his parents that he had it, for fear that it would give him an excuse not to work.

I know, only one case, so that's a fallacy, and his dyslexia is not as extreme as some.

Many students need extra help, and I hope they get it.
 
No,

The behavior communicates the necessity of getting an education so that they can make something out of their lives.

Love is highly unlikely to suffer, the bond between child and parent is strong, and if Mum and Dad are serious about getting an education and paying attention in class, and not letting yourself get distracted by others not working, then maybe the child will start working in the lessons.

Again I feel that it is necessary to reiterate that if a child is having a difficult time then they must be helped. Even if going to work was difficult or you are tired, you must ensure that the homework is done and that they are not confused by the current work they need to do. Get them to ask questions of both you and their teachers. We all want an effective learning environment, don't we?
 
Gmarthews said:
Sure, but letting fear of this split up a united front should not happen. Meetings behind closed doors etc.

I have a friend who is dyslexic and he was never told by his parents that he had it, for fear that it would give him an excuse not to work.

I know, only one case, so that's a fallacy, and his dyslexia is not as extreme as some.

Many students need extra help, and I hope they get it.
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ah so he just had to go along thinking he must be thick or he'd be able to do what everyone else could easily
Blinding psychological abuse there.
When exactly did your 'friend' find out? Did he not realise he was being tested when he sat in the psychologists office for a couple of hours doing tests?

You should change your name to bully bullshit
 
toggle said:
And screw the effect that such behaviour will have on the parent child relationship and the self esteem of the child.
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quite... and no acknowledgement that very often the disputes arise because the school/teachers very often treat the children like utter shite and yet the parents should thank the school staff for their abusive behaviour and massive failings and tell the child to suck it up kidda, its the best thing for you

But no, nothing will get in the way of love, love will conquor all
*barf*
 
Gmarthews said:
Of course it is not always the parents and children's fault. Please excuse her slight exaggeration there.

It is not always the teacher/school's fault, either.

The important thing is communication and the parents and schools putting up a united front in the effort to give them an education.
Click to expand...

aah the very first acknowedgement EVER that schools/teachers might not be perfect against many many nasty and negative comments about parents and their children-0 particularly persistently aimed at those who have special needs or those who arent 'nice, middle class conforming' types

Id LOVE to find out where you work because like others have said your views need reporting for the sake of the children and families you are in contact with
 
Anyone who really spends time with a kid who is being badly let down by a school can see the damage that it does to the child. The change in their whole demeanour is incredibly dramatic. When my son was being bullied and the school staff was either ignoring him, or punishing him for drawing attention to himself by complaining, he lost his appetite, didn't play much at home, didn't laugh. He was absolutely miserable. it's a horrible thing to see in a child.

Then we identified the problem and told him that what was happening to him wasn't right and told him that we would make sure that the school took action to protect him. just knowing that we would back him up, that we believed him was over half the battle won. knowing that he had our support helped him to stand up for himself to the bully and the indifferent and enabling behaviour of certain people who were supposed to have a duty of care to him. The teacher or dinner ladies refused to believe him, he took himself off to the head to complain. I do not believe he would have done this if he hadn't known that we would support him.
 
Oh yeah, I lose SO much sleep...
I actually feel iller reading his bile, directed at children and parents who have enough to contend with, without his "responsibility" agenda and the idea that they should have their right to an education removed...
This person claims to be a teacher....its really bloody worrying that he thinks as he does about the children he teaches- particularly the most vulnerable, the ones who are 'hard work for him'
Diddums
 
LilMissHissyFit said:
ah so he just had to go along thinking he must be thick or he'd be able to do what everyone else could easily
Blinding psychological abuse there.
When exactly did your 'friend' find out? Did he not realise he was being tested when he sat in the psychologists office for a couple of hours doing tests?

You should change your name to bully bullshit
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From what I can gather from my mother, now retired but taught for many years, is that it is a very old fashioned attitude to not tell a kid they have a problem.

Modern teaching methods are generally to include the child in discussing how they can be helped, and to get feedback from the child as to what they feel is most effective for them. What they can do only gives so much information, it can't tell you whether the child feels less discomfort when they try to write. i also can't imagine using some methods to help a child with such difficulties such as using physical therapy exercises to help them relax and improve hand eye coordination without telling the child why they do this and not their classmates.

There is also, as you say, a benefit to the child in telling them why they have more trouble in certain areas than their classmates so they don't feel they are stupid and want to give up on education.
 
Toggle - I am obviously in favour of supporting your child in the way you did, and the unified front of school and parent shouldn't hinder this.

My issue is not with disruptive children who might disrupt due to other problems such as bullying or problems reading, these should be identified by the school and the parents working together. With additional resources allocated where possible.

I am horrified at the report that the school was not more supportive.

My problem is with kids who are disruptive because they don't want to do work, and they decide to disrupt the class just because it's fun to do so.

Now LMHF might wish to avoid considering these cases in detail and try and push the debate into her realm which is much easier, but this issue is a daily occurrence in many schools and the teachers are sick to death with it.

So what is the solution? Well unfortunately the LMHF's of the world are too pissed off about their individual cases to give this more balanced view a thought. To try and understand that the simple answer 'the teachers should be better' is just not adequate. Teachers need rights too, and the right to escort a disruptive child from the classroom would seem the very least. If there are reasons behind this disruption then this should better enable us to highlight the problem. The escorted child could go to a counselor maybe?
Meanwhile the discipline in the class has not been hindered and the important task of teaching your children the tools necessary to make something of their lives can continue, rather than the current system where the child comes back to the class and continues the disruption to the detriment of all.

So how would you like your child's education to be continually disrupted by the other kids to the point where your child fails to get any qualifications? I suppose you would blame the teachers or the schools again? How easy!

The system needs to be aligned to ensure that the classroom is not disrupted, so that education results. Having contracts is seen by the schools as a means to ensure this happens. Sure it could be abused as can any right, but the system is being abused NOW and it is your children who are suffering! Perhaps if you turned your intellectual guns from trying to diss people on here towards trying to engage with the issue and suggest solutions for the problems currently found in the classroom, then we might stop bickering amongst ourselves and get somewhere.

Add to this the fact that people considering teaching are not stupid. Why get involved in a career where you are not supported by the parents and even the school sometimes? And where you get the blame for everything? So of course the number of teachers decline, leading to further problems.
 
Gmarthews said:
Toggle - I am obviously in favour of supporting your child in the way you did, and the unified front of school and parent shouldn't hinder this.
Click to expand...

Yes it does interfere in this because a major part of supporting my child was to tell him that the way in which the school were treating him was wrong. Telling him that I supported the school would have done a great deal of further damage to him. It's interesting to see you back peddling on this issue though.

Works just about as well as the goalpost moving that you have done to claim that you want to debate about disruptive children instead of your previous whining about children who are perceived as dirty or who can't sit still in class (which is another sign of some learning difficulties)

LMHF and i have both had experiences of being told our children are a problem in the class and that we are the cause of their problems. Such accusations are very frequently used to deny the help that children with special needs require in order to get an effective education unless the parents are willing and able to fight for what their child needs. Again, a child who knows they are different to their classmates and are being ignored by the teachers needs to know that their parents support them, not the school.
 
Trying to bring it back to your issue again, refusing to engage again.

I don't feel that I am 'back-peddling' tho I'm sure LMHF will gleefully back you up on that.

I am NOT happy with the lack of support you got from the school (second time).

I also maintain that teaching children who have been allowed to wear the same clothes several days in a row is impossible because they can't sit still. Neither could anyone in dirty clothes, you try it!!

Sure it might be a sign of learning difficulties but in a vast majority of cases it is an example of parents not producing children with clean clothes, and tho you seem unwilling to engage this impacts on YOUR children too.

You and LMHF have had the experience of being told that you are the problem. I can't comment on your cases as I don't know them but I assure you that to assume that parents are never a problem is a fallacy.
 
We're still going back to the understanding that LMHF and I both have, that schools like to accuse children with learning difficulties of having neglectful parents because it can allow them to avoid having to provide a suitable education for those children. Any measures that are taken that would allow schools to act against children would no doubt be applied against those that require above average effort to teach and are expecting below average results. In simple terms, it is a charter to allow schools to discriminate against such children, more than they already do so.

We have also raised the issue that children that do have behavioural issues and neglectful parents would be put further at risk by your suggestion of removing them from the school environment and insisting the parents educate them at home. in fact, if as you maintain, there are a significant number of parents who are unable to dress their children in clean clothes, I wonder how you would expect these parents to provide anything even vaguely resembling an education that would provide a child a suitable base on which to build a life.

In fact, it would be making some of the most vulnerable people in our society even more vulnerable.
 
Gmarthews said:
What I don't like about this debate is the assumption that teachers should have no rights at all.
Click to expand...
This "assumption" isn't actually present though, is it? :)
That they should be able to put up with whatever behaviour, and the beauty is that we are to blame for the behaviour of the kids.

If we 'can't keep them under control' or 'can't enthuse them' then it is our fault, and if the parents just couldn't give a monkey about if they behave, then that's OK because parents can do no wrong...
Click to expand...
Nobody has said any of that.
Are you relating personal anecdote to us here? Have you personally been blamed for all these things and are feeling sore about it? :)
If you have parents who refuse to back the school when their little darling abuses every teacher, then teachers in general have no chance of teaching them anything, and they are a disruptive effect on a class, in which there might be a majority of kids who want to learn.
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Myself, I'd be wondering why anyone would want to work in a school who's governors were so ridiculously lax, or in a local education authority that was so unsupportive of it's employees.
But still at no point does anyone acknowledge that parents use schools as a free babysitting service, and hide behind their 'right' to education.
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Let's elucidate that, shall we?
Some parents act as you claim, usually a small minority, small enough so that communication between the school and the parents can usually address the issue.
Well if it gets too bad then this right will probably be taken away, or legislated around.

We already have problems attracting high quality teachers into the profession, due in part to the view that teachers are not given the power to keep order in the classrooms. We have the right to escort children out, but if they attack you and the parents don't care, then what do you do? Next day the kid is back in school, or maybe gets suspended for a few days. Often they tell their parents lies about how the teachers behave getting them wound up as well.
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Which is why schools should always assemble a decent case before attempting to suspend or exclude a pupil. A panel almost has to give a pupil the benefit of the doubt if a case is built around the word of a teacher against that of a pupil. Contractually-obligating parents to fll in line behind the school rather than their children won't change that.
So come on, if you all think you're that clever, how would you solve this issue, or are you just gonna blame the schools again? Or the teachers? Heaven forbid that the parents might be at fault!!

If this situation continues then we WILL see changes to keep the disruptive children out just to keep the schools going.
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You really so miss the point spectacularly, don't you? :D

Most parents would love to see an education system with: Clearly-defined disciplinary procedures.
Proper assessment of pupils for issues such as dyslexia, speech, hearing and sight impairment.
Specialist provision where necessary for children whose issues mean that they can't integrate into mainstream schooling.
Direct funding of home education where requested.

It isn't about the parents and children ganging up on teachers, it's about a system that doesn't allow parents, pupils or teachers the room to manouvre around problems or to utilise non-standard solutions to deal with those problems.
 
Gmarthews said:
Toggle - I am obviously in favour of supporting your child in the way you did, and the unified front of school and parent shouldn't hinder this.

My issue is not with disruptive children who might disrupt due to other problems such as bullying or problems reading, these should be identified by the school and the parents working together. With additional resources allocated where possible.

I am horrified at the report that the school was not more supportive.

My problem is with kids who are disruptive because they don't want to do work, and they decide to disrupt the class just because it's fun to do so.

Now LMHF might wish to avoid considering these cases in detail and try and push the debate into her realm which is much easier, but this issue is a daily occurrence in many schools and the teachers are sick to death with it.

So what is the solution? Well unfortunately the LMHF's of the world are too pissed off about their individual cases to give this more balanced view a thought. To try and understand that the simple answer 'the teachers should be better' is just not adequate. Teachers need rights too, and the right to escort a disruptive child from the classroom would seem the very least. If there are reasons behind this disruption then this should better enable us to highlight the problem. The escorted child could go to a counselor maybe?
Meanwhile the discipline in the class has not been hindered and the important task of teaching your children the tools necessary to make something of their lives can continue, rather than the current system where the child comes back to the class and continues the disruption to the detriment of all.

So how would you like your child's education to be continually disrupted by the other kids to the point where your child fails to get any qualifications? I suppose you would blame the teachers or the schools again? How easy!

The system needs to be aligned to ensure that the classroom is not disrupted, so that education results. Having contracts is seen by the schools as a means to ensure this happens. Sure it could be abused as can any right, but the system is being abused NOW and it is your children who are suffering! Perhaps if you turned your intellectual guns from trying to diss people on here towards trying to engage with the issue and suggest solutions for the problems currently found in the classroom, then we might stop bickering amongst ourselves and get somewhere.

Add to this the fact that people considering teaching are not stupid. Why get involved in a career where you are not supported by the parents and even the school sometimes? And where you get the blame for everything? So of course the number of teachers decline, leading to further problems.
Click to expand...

Why do I get the idea that THIS

panopt6crop.jpg


is the kind of solution you'd favour? ;)
 
Gmarthews said:
Trying to bring it back to your issue again, refusing to engage again.

I don't feel that I am 'back-peddling' tho I'm sure LMHF will gleefully back you up on that.

I am NOT happy with the lack of support you got from the school (second time).

I also maintain that teaching children who have been allowed to wear the same clothes several days in a row is impossible because they can't sit still. Neither could anyone in dirty clothes, you try it!!
Click to expand...
Sorry, but that's the most wrongheaded, completely erroneous statement you've made yet!
Talk to any infantry soldier and they'll soon tell you you're talking absolute nonsense.

The main clothing-related problem for children has been infestation, and that barely exists anymore except in outbreaks of headlice (which isn't the same thing as a clothing infestation).
 
Gmarthews said:
Trying to bring it back to your issue again, refusing to engage again.

I don't feel that I am 'back-peddling' tho I'm sure LMHF will gleefully back you up on that.

I am NOT happy with the lack of support you got from the school (second time).

I also maintain that teaching children who have been allowed to wear the same clothes several days in a row is impossible because they can't sit still. Neither could anyone in dirty clothes, you try it!!

Sure it might be a sign of learning difficulties but in a vast majority of cases it is an example of parents not producing children with clean clothes, and tho you seem unwilling to engage this impacts on YOUR children too.

You and LMHF have had the experience of being told that you are the problem. I can't comment on your cases as I don't know them but I assure you that to assume that parents are never a problem is a fallacy.
Click to expand...

Nobody has said that
You on the other hand seem to be suggesting quite clearly that you would like the right to an education denied to those who wear dirty clothes

Can i ask you for your opinion then ( since you seem unable to debate facts)
on a child who has a dirty clothes, has head lice that havent been treated despite letters home.
The child is bright, engaging but often disruptive, has difficulty sitting still and often distracts other children in the class.He often seems tired,smells a bit and other kids sometimes call him names ( which he then reacts to causing fights) He quite often gets accused of bullying He has difficulty writing legibly,shows little interest in reading and never brings in his homework.

Home education a good situation for him under your plans? His destiny because his parent has chosen not to send him to school or support the school as you would like under your contracts?

a simple yes or no will do- if you wouldnt mind.
 
Again your stories about problems at home are all well and good, but disruptive kids don't always have some violin playing story in the background and your assumption that they all do seems a bit unreal. Or do you accept that teachers have to put up with unreasonable behavior and deserve a bit of support from parents?

I have repeatedly stated that children who are disadvantaged should get more resources to the detriment of all the other kids.

I see no reason why this discussion is relevant, you don't wanna talk about contracts and their future then fine, have it your way.

I mean if you want to ask unreasonable questions why not just ask if I eat meat and then conclude that I support murder.

Unreasonable is the only word I can use. You try to discuss but they are just more concerned with attacking people and laughing at them when they look stupid. How playgroundy. No sense of communication in the quest for a solution, just abuse.

And violent pandas infantry man in his quest to prove that dirty clothes don't have any effect, and the house I mean what was that!!! Surreal!
 
In other words, you're not willing to discuss anything unless you can control the discussion to make it just about how great your ideas are. you don't want to have to engage with those who cannot see it as workable and see it as a great way for schools to increase the levels of discrimination they use against the less able.
 
I think this debte is about discipline and responsibility.

Parents who cannot teach these things to their children should expect to hear about it, otherwise they are setting their children up. I do not think it is the schools' job to parent children; it is the parents.

When I look at some of the service users I have worked with, I thank god I wasn't born their child. Insufficient coat, shoes, bedding, sometimes no actual bed. Poor foor, too many sweets and fizzy drinks - but they have a playstation.

I am QUITE sure that not all schools are perfect - my own suggested I get a vocational job as opposed to go to University, all because I left home in the lower 6th. But even so, it is not the school's job to parent the children, and that does include teaching them things at home, and not passing the buck to others. imvho ;)
 
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