Hardly any.
Against Crime and against prison
- Thread starter The Black Hand
- Start date
The Black Hand
Unclean
Well, there is the small matter of those persons having been judged to have committed a crime.
Now while those "crimes" may, for the most part, be pathetic, the sort of thing one should serve a community punishment for at most, and the "criminals" themselves victims of circumstance, the only way change will be realised under current political conditions is via organisation.
Yes, you are saying what I think and do...
The Black Hand
Unclean
Loads.
The Black Hand
Unclean
What sort of toss is this? you know the prisons are full of poor people and therefore there was nothing disingenuous about my statement at all. It is objectively true, their poverty is an overwhelming characteristic of the vast majority of women prisoners.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Slurp.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The idea that our prisons are overflowing with those who have not paid TV licenses or dropping litter is utter bollocks and embarassing. As is of course the suggestion that if you are poor you end up in prison. Despite Attica's apparant convenient adoption of the NUM he ought to be aware that mining communities were proud to work, proud of their community and didn't have any time for the thieves, burglars and street robbers that he feels are the victims .
Of course for those who are the real victims of crime ( and there will be more of those than prisoners) Attica and the apologists can only say blame capitalism.
If you are a democrat Attica let communities decide how offenders are punished.
Of course for those who are the real victims of crime ( and there will be more of those than prisoners) Attica and the apologists can only say blame capitalism.
If you are a democrat Attica let communities decide how offenders are punished.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Last time it was quantified (2001-02) fine and tv licence defaulters made up just under 15% of women given a custodial sentence.
Now theoretically, magistrates have been guidelined to use other punishments for these offences, but we don't actually have any comparative data yet to show whether the percentage has gone down, up or has indeed reduced to "hardly any".
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
That isn't actually what he's claimed though, is it (even though he does surrender to tabloidesque sloganeering far too often!
)?Our prisons are indeed "overflowing", and many (in my formerly professional opinion as many as 40% of the prison population) of the inmates should, rather than being incarcerated, for example have been offered the option of long-term detox and rehab, of reparation-based "payment" for their crime (I'm not talking about money, but about apology, acceptance of their crime, and of service as reparation) or of a community service-centric punishment.
If you then winnow out all those who are incarcerated while suffering from a pre-incarceration serious mental health issue, and who should be receiving psychiatric and psychological treatments, you're left with a "hardcore" of offenders who comprise probably (at a rough calculation) 25% of the original inmate population, three fifths of whom are serious and/or serial violent offenders, and the other two fifths of whom are so-called "career criminals"/recidivists.
Although even Michael Howard's Home Office admitted (under pressure) that poverty and address (as well as ethnicity) militated toward whether you received a custodial sentence or not.
Again you're doing a fine job putting words in someone's mouth.
Well done.
Have you considered becoming a politician?
"Only"?
I think not.
It is however, a fact that our current mode of capitalism contributes to criminalisation and criminal activity, from the lowliest of "crimes" to the highest. Remember, "greed is good".
I suspect you'll find that attica, like any half-rational person, is in favour of community-centred justice.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Vote IWCA.
So people are wrong to see crime as one of the most important issues? I think there's evidence to support the view that crime is worse now than it has been for a long time.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/may/18/ukcrime.police
_angel_
.
No they aren't, it's just are they putting the right people in jail and for long enough?
Shoplifters more likely to go to jail than rapists...
http://www.theherald.co.uk/mostpopu...e_likely_to_go_to_jail_than_sex_offenders.php
cockneyrebel
New Member
Is anyone on here actually making that point?
cockneyrebel
New Member
I can't see that he his, whatever his other views.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
That isn't actually what he's claimed though, is it (even though he does surrender to tabloidesque sloganeering far too often!
Our prisons are indeed "overflowing", and many (in my formerly professional opinion as many as 40% of the prison population) of the inmates should, rather than being incarcerated, for example have been offered the option of long-term detox and rehab, of reparation-based "payment" for their crime (I'm not talking about money, but about apology, acceptance of their crime, and of service as reparation) or of a community service-centric punishment.
If you then winnow out all those who are incarcerated while suffering from a pre-incarceration serious mental health issue, and who should be receiving psychiatric and psychological treatments, you're left with a "hardcore" of offenders who comprise probably (at a rough calculation) 25% of the original inmate population, three fifths of whom are serious and/or serial violent offenders, and the other two fifths of whom are so-called "career criminals"/recidivists.
Although even Michael Howard's Home Office admitted (under pressure) that poverty and address (as well as ethnicity) militated toward whether you received a custodial sentence or not.
Again you're doing a fine job putting words in someone's mouth.
Well done.
Have you considered becoming a politician?
"Only"?
I think not.
It is however, a fact that our current mode of capitalism contributes to criminalisation and criminal activity, from the lowliest of "crimes" to the highest. Remember, "greed is good".
I suspect you'll find that attica, like any half-rational person, is in favour of community-centred justice.
Good post .Some of the points that you make are quite reasonable and are worthy of further exploration. I am not defending the status quo but I am defending the right for any judicial system to incarcerate for public protection and where other options or sanctions have failed.
I can't accept your assumption that Attica is in favour of community centred justice until he actually shows evidence that he is. I have never seen him take the side of victims of crime only those who perpetrate crime . He had a period where he portrayed cigarette smugglers as some form of underground resistance to capital for example.
I am very keen on the direct involvement of communities in sentencing and confronting those who offend, the present community justice pilots do not do this. I am also very much in favour of restorative justice, direct reparation and the expansion of drug treatment especially the recovering communities model.
I will come back later on the points that you make as they are a useful contribution in developing alternative punishments and sanctions that communities should be able to access but you would be better off ditching the EP Thompson tribute act as he undermines any sensible discussion.
But the question was how many are "in jail", not how many are sent there. Yes, there may well be a significant proportion of sentences for non-payment of fines (including TV licence related ones) but they are invariably very short and so they are not actually "in jail" for any great length of time. I suspect if we did a snapshot now there'd be no more than a few dozen at absolute maximum "in jail" for TV licence related offences.
No. Rapists are FAR more likely to go to jail than shoplifters when convicted. What you mean is that shoplifters are far more likely to be caught and convicted than rapists ...
In order to make their point the authors of that article have included "indecency" (not defined, undoubtedly including things like indecent exposure) with rape. (They also make no mention at all of repeat offending either - shoplifting is notorious for offenders who receive non-custodial sentences but continue to offend to the point where imprisonment is the only option left).
Dishonest use of statistics and misleading reporting at it's finest.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
You're probably correct in terms of current scale, but duration of sentence isn't, IMHO, a factor to be taken into account, given that a custodial sentence of any length significantly affects one's "life-chances". The degree of criminalisation inherent to the serving of a custodial sentence makes it less likely that any future fine will be affordable.
_angel_
.
No I didn't mean shoplifters are more likely to be caught than rapists, although undoubtedly they are.
Yes, I'm not stupid and do also realise the article was using all those convicted of some kind of indecency as well to boost their stats. It is not just including 'rapists' I know, but still a bit of a shocking thing at the end of the day to treat indecency and indecent assault so seemingly lightly.
Unless there's a huge number of blokes being done just for having a piss al fresco (unlikely to be the cause of over 70% of cases non custodial sentencing) I think it needs looking at.
Yes, I'm also aware that probably the shoplifters jailed are repeat offenders. Also I'm aware that jailing them doesn't seem to stop them from re offending.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Getting the latter of drugs might but many of these refuse treatment when offered and they will have not complied with community alternatives.
The Black Hand
Unclean
The Black Hand
Unclean
Sorry pal it is you who is way off the mark - the jails ARE overflowing with property/money related offences (greater than 90%) those inside for violence are very minimal, for women even scarcer.
The Black Hand
Unclean
So roughly 210 are inside and 600 offenders are in the community. DO you want those who were in prison to be roughed up by the offenders in the community or something? What are you saying? You are not making a lot of sense with your comments.
The Black Hand
Unclean
See what I mean.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Not that I can see. Although during the Spanish revolution the jails were smashed open and the prisoners released.
It's only the angst ridden 'serious' british left who has problems with radical ideas - who sees problems/negatives rather than possibilities/positives at every turn. You lot are so deeply entrenched in your views you can't see it.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I thought burglary was a property offence . Please read the post before replying.
And why dismiss property offences ? Having your car broken into or stolen, your garage or shed or house, having your bike stolen makes life a misery for the victim.Working class areas suffer disproportionality from crime. Again what is wrong with working class communities deciding on how offenders should, be dealt with?
I'm not making a lot of sense? What does you post actually mean? You're worried about the 210 that are inside?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
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