Against Crime and against prison

[ViolentPanda]

It's obvious to all that the prison system is horribly flawed. What's not obvious is another option.

Quite possibly because we shouldn't be addressing "prison" as a concept before we've dealt with concrete issues surrounding the varying failings of the prison systems of individual nation-states.
In the UK I'd say that would mean dealing with (at the very least) issues around education of and education for inmates, meaningful rehabilitation and training for those that want it, and a serious attempt to help inmates cope with issues that may have militated toward their criminal actions (substance abuse etc).
Then we'd have to tackle organising mechanisms to assist people outside of a penal environment, to help those that need help BEFORE they do something that'll get them locked up, and to help them PROPERLY after they've been released.
The problem with any of this happening doesn't lie with the majority of the "population" of our prisons, it lies with our politicians, who benefit greatly from having a mechanism by which they can prove how "tough" they are, and their paymasters, who have benefited from the marketisation of ancillary services to prisons and from the emergence of "private prisons".

Of course, there are always going to be crime and criminals that offend normative decency so much that incarceration is called for, but if we remove manufactured media outrage from the equation, what percentage of criminal activity would that constitute? A small minority, I believe.

I'm not an "abolitionist", but I do believe in minimising incarceration and maximising rehabilitation.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ooooh, a great campaign slogan for the 'left'....... there are 82,855 prisoners at the moment, we want to release 82,027 of them straight away....

... people will be flooding to join the new socialist dawn....

Your first mistake was in taking anything dwyer posts seriously.

Your second mistake was replying to him.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Part of the problem is that politicians seem to view the prison system as the whole answer. It isn't (nor are the police or the Courts). They, or something very like them, will always be necessary for some things, but the answers to much crime (and the "punishment" and rehabilitation of many offenders) lies elsewhere.

Our Criminal Justice System should only ever be seen as a back-stop, for when everything else has failed. And prison should be seen as the long-back-stop when everything else within the Criminal Justice System has failed (or is likely to fail).

"Punishment" that treats the offender as human, punishment that isn't directly retributive and reflective of tough political stances on crime, doesn't play well with politicians wishing to make political capital. Therefore it's thin on the ground.

 

[detective-boy]

"Punishment" that treats the offender as human, punishment that isn't directly retributive and reflective of tough political stances on crime, doesn't play well with politicians wishing to make political capital. Therefore it's thin on the ground.

Indeed. It also does nothing to deal with the longer term problem as it does nothing to address the cause for offending in the first place. The principal aim of prison should be rehabilitation and prevention of re-offending - in the interests of society generally and future victims in particular, not just the offender.

 

[Cressi]

Out of that approx fig of 82,000 are approx 4,000 women with 70% having mental health problems. Women stuck in a system made by men for men. Women sent miles away from their families and children.

We have to watch the US we do not want a North American Model which also see 's prisons as business, it employs lots of people, keeps people busy and keeps the streets tidy.

Women need to be in smaller units closer to home not stuck in old victorian buildings or old air bases stuck in the middles of now where.

http://www.womeninprison.org.uk.

 

[Jografer]

Your first mistake was in taking anything dwyer posts seriously.

Your second mistake was replying to him.

... named & shamed....

 

[ViolentPanda]

Out of that approx fig of 82,000 are approx 4,000 women with 70% having mental health problems. Women stuck in a system made by men for men. Women sent miles away from their families and children.

Interestingly (to me anyway, but then I'm a bit of a spod ), several prisons or wings built specifically for women in the late 19th and early 20th century were subsumed by men's prisons, or wholly taken over. What's now the "Vulnerable Prisoner Unit" in Wandsworth prison was, for many years, a women's prison capable of holding 300-400 inmates. Now it's full of nonces.

We have to watch the US we do not want a North American Model which also see 's prisons as business, it employs lots of people, keeps people busy and keeps the streets tidy.

We already have a prison Service that's marketised and part-privatised, so the "business" model is already applied, unfortunately.

Women need to be in smaller units closer to home not stuck in old victorian buildings or old air bases stuck in the middles of now where.

http://www.womeninprison.org.uk.

That's true of all inmates, not just women, IMHO.

 

[ViolentPanda]

... named & shamed....

Sorry,,but it was for your own good!

 

[bluestreak]

The present prıson system ıs corrupted beyond repaır. 99% of ıncarcerated people do not belong behınd bars. It ıs an ıssue that should be far more promınent on the Left than ıt ıs at present.

I agree with this, though not necessarily the 99% off the top of my head.

 

[Bakunin]

Yes folks, with the abolition of prisons then folk like this individual can be soon walking the streets:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maudsley

Thankfully, he's unlikely to be granted parole any time soon.

 

[The39thStep]

The present prıson system ıs corrupted beyond repaır. 99% of ıncarcerated people do not belong behınd bars. It ıs an ıssue that should be far more promınent on the Left than ıt ıs at present.

Where do they belong?

 

[Cressi]

Micehel Foucaults book Discipline and Punish describes in the first chapter the gory act of open public punishment. In detail it describes the hanging, drawing and quartering of man. Then the movement to behind closed doors. How systems of thought influence the prison system.

An option is to update the buildings, eco friendly, photovoltic panels, grow veg, farm food. Dream on.

Instead it gets passed around like a hot potatoe.

 

[lewislewis]

The present prıson system ıs corrupted beyond repaır. 99% of ıncarcerated people do not belong behınd bars. It ıs an ıssue that should be far more promınent on the Left than ıt ıs at present.

He's right ya know (probably not 99% though).

The UK has the highest imprisonment rates of all Western European countries and some of the highest crime rates. There are other societies with a similar profile to ours that lock up less people AND have lower crime.

The majority of adults incarcerated in the UK prison system have a mental disorder.

Dangerous behaviour should be identified early on and prevented like in the Finnish model of youth justice.

 

[The39thStep]

Micehel Foucaults book Discipline and Punish describes in the first chapter the gory act of open public punishment. In detail it describes the hanging, drawing and quartering of man. Then the movement to behind closed doors. How systems of thought influence the prison system.

An option is to update the buildings, eco friendly, photovoltic panels, grow veg, farm food. Dream on.

Instead it gets passed around like a hot potatoe.

Bit passe Foucault these days but i suppose his books could be given out to those serving sentences.

Are those campaigning for prison reform campaigning to ban smoking in them so as to improve prisoners health? A mate of mine whose brother is serving a sentence for drink driving said that his brother requested a non smoking cell but was told that there were none available.Not on really.

 

[The Black Hand]

For those interested here is details of an international abolitionist conference in London coming up soon - July 23-25th 2008;

http://www.icopa12london.org.uk/index.php?id=578

This will be good and a great place to learn about abolitionism. Forget the knee jerk reactionaries on here, or just the jerks such as defective detective boy. Find out for yourself and do not let other fools put you off. Prison abolition - the only sensible long term alternative for british prisons

 

[lewislewis]

Quite possibly because we shouldn't be addressing "prison" as a concept before we've dealt with concrete issues surrounding the varying failings of the prison systems of individual nation-states.
In the UK I'd say that would mean dealing with (at the very least) issues around education of and education for inmates, meaningful rehabilitation and training for those that want it, and a serious attempt to help inmates cope with issues that may have militated toward their criminal actions (substance abuse etc).
Then we'd have to tackle organising mechanisms to assist people outside of a penal environment, to help those that need help BEFORE they do something that'll get them locked up, and to help them PROPERLY after they've been released.
The problem with any of this happening doesn't lie with the majority of the "population" of our prisons, it lies with our politicians, who benefit greatly from having a mechanism by which they can prove how "tough" they are, and their paymasters, who have benefited from the marketisation of ancillary services to prisons and from the emergence of "private prisons".

Of course, there are always going to be crime and criminals that offend normative decency so much that incarceration is called for, but if we remove manufactured media outrage from the equation, what percentage of criminal activity would that constitute? A small minority, I believe.

I'm not an "abolitionist", but I do believe in minimising incarceration and maximising rehabilitation.

Sure. I agree with this.

Let's broaden our perspective a bit. It isn't a choice of the British prison system or abolishing it. The prison system in the UK is almost unique in Europe (well in the more prosperous parts of Europe) in its harshness and levels of incarceration. It is not normal.

The Scandinavian countries have prison systems (although i'm not educated on Norway's yet so they might be different, but it'd surprise me) based on rehabilitation which lowers offending rates and reduces the need for prisons. This is combined with a welfare system that prioritises education for all and produces some of the most intelligent kids in the world. These kind of countries are amongst the most equal societies in the world as well- which is almost certainly their main factor to reducing crime.

I'm sure they still have crime but not at the rate that the UK has- and they certainly don't have a disproportionate fear of crime like we have.

In fact the post i've quoted is 100% correct in identifying media coverage, the need for a populist 'tough on crime' stance and privatisation as the major ills that are driving the UK's prison system down an unsustainable route.

So it's time people in the UK made a serious argument that will be heard, for rehabilitation and crime prevention, rather than punishment. I fear that the general public are someitmes more of the 'bring back hanging' persuasion though, and the ones that disagree with this just stay quiet because no alternative is on offer from the main political parties. This will change though.

I think there will be a case for abolishing prison in an egalitarian society, but until then there is no reason why we can't have a prison system that is much fairer and more effective and more caring than what is in place now. This kind of system already exists elsewhere in Europe.

I'd invite anyone interested in criminal justice to read a discussion paper by Leanne Wood, a socialist, republican and environmentalist politician and AM in Wales. She sums up all the main points and there are statistics that can be used in future arguments:
http://www.plaidcymru.org/uploads/publications/319.pdf

 

[ViolentPanda]

Sure. I agree with this.

Let's broaden our perspective a bit. It isn't a choice of the British prison system or abolishing it. The prison system in the UK is almost unique in Europe (well in the more prosperous parts of Europe) in its harshness and levels of incarceration. It is not normal.

I agree that it's "not normal". Back when Widdecombe was prisons minister under Michael Howard, we (the Prison Service dept of the Home Office) had a visiting delegation from the Ukraine who remarked on how severely we treated our petty criminals, saying they reserved such strict conditions (they were being taken for a tour around Wandsworth Prison) for their violent recidivists.
Says it all, really.

The Scandinavian countries have prison systems (although i'm not educated on Norway's yet so they might be different, but it'd surprise me) based on rehabilitation which lowers offending rates and reduces the need for prisons. This is combined with a welfare system that prioritises education for all and produces some of the most intelligent kids in the world. These kind of countries are amongst the most equal societies in the world as well- which is almost certainly their main factor to reducing crime.

The other thing is that some of the European countries make a direct effort to integrate different necessary services, so that a prisoner's family will be helped to claim any welfare that they need, and their physical and mental health will be looked after, as will that of the inmate, and post-prison assistance in the form of welfare, advice and continuing rehab and education are made freely available. You avoid recidivism by giving the person opportunities to dig themselves out of their hole, which also happens to be the best way of helping them develop a sense of self-worth.

I'm sure they still have crime but not at the rate that the UK has- and they certainly don't have a disproportionate fear of crime like we have.

In fact the post i've quoted is 100% correct in identifying media coverage, the need for a populist 'tough on crime' stance and privatisation as the major ills that are driving the UK's prison system down an unsustainable route.

We (along with, IMO, the US) never seem to have escaped our Victorian-era fascinated fear about crime (specifically crime committed by "the lower social orders"), and this has been reflected in a hundred years-worth of criminal justice policy, and this tool of social control has provided a handy stick by which to stir up the moral panic "hornet's nest" whenever a new justification is needed with reference to criminal justice policy.

So it's time people in the UK made a serious argument that will be heard, for rehabilitation and crime prevention, rather than punishment. I fear that the general public are someitmes more of the 'bring back hanging' persuasion though, and the ones that disagree with this just stay quiet because no alternative is on offer from the main political parties. This will change though.

I agree about the issues militating against change, but until the media either change their morality, or a wide-access media form is willing and/or able to represent the arguments for rehabilitation, prevention and education in non-sensational terms, then change will be very slow.

I think there will be a case for abolishing prison in an egalitarian society, but until then there is no reason why we can't have a prison system that is much fairer and more effective and more caring than what is in place now. This kind of system already exists elsewhere in Europe.

Yup.

I'd invite anyone interested in criminal justice to read a discussion paper by Leanne Wood, a socialist, republican and environmentalist politician and AM in Wales. She sums up all the main points and there are statistics that can be used in future arguments:
http://www.plaidcymru.org/uploads/publications/319.pdf

Downloaded. I'll give it a read later.

 

[lewislewis]

Cool! While i'm here i'll be cheeky and ask you to let her know what you think about it, on the blog:
http://www.leannewoodamac.blogspot.com/

 

[The39thStep]

I fear that the general public are someitmes more of the 'bring back hanging' persuasion though, and the ones that disagree with this just stay quiet because no alternative is on offer from the main political parties.

most sentencing exercises involving the public show that this is far from the case.What many of the liberal left don't do is to take the view of the working class seriously unless they say the right on things. Crime is a particular area where the liberal left view working class views with suspicion and sometimes ridicule. If anything communities want more involvement in saying what happens not less.

The abolish prisons lobby is not likely to go down too well in streets that are plagued with crime and anti social behaviour and where victims feel that the system is loaded in favour of the criminals anyway.

 

[The Black Hand]

Out of that approx fig of 82,000 are approx 4,000 women with 70% having mental health problems. Women stuck in a system made by men for men. Women sent miles away from their families and children.

We have to watch the US we do not want a North American Model which also see 's prisons as business, it employs lots of people, keeps people busy and keeps the streets tidy.

Women need to be in smaller units closer to home not stuck in old victorian buildings or old air bases stuck in the middles of now where.

http://www.womeninprison.org.uk.

I fear the prison business is only going to get larger and more women will be thrown into them, for no other reason than being poor and powerless.

 

[Oswaldtwistle]

I fear the prison business is only going to get larger and more women will be thrown into them, for no other reason than being poor and powerless.

and having broken the law!!


In fact most *victims* of crime are 'poor and poweless'!!

I'm afraid I'm with the foaming at the mouth Daily Mail brigade on this one

 

[mk12]

The abolish prisons lobby is not likely to go down too well in streets that are plagued with crime and anti social behaviour and where victims feel that the system is loaded in favour of the criminals anyway.

Any response to this attica?

 

[The Black Hand]

and having broken the law!!

In fact most *victims* of crime are 'poor and poweless'!!

I'm afraid I'm with the foaming at the mouth Daily Mail brigade on this one

Indeed the law which says the rich, govt and business can legally rob us (note petrol prices for example), that protects property and food (in France you cannot go to jail for robbing food if you have no money on you), that says the rich and the poor are both free to live under the bridges of London.

The law in its wisdom is not justice, it is a code which protects the wealthy from the poor.

 

[The Black Hand]

The abolish prisons lobby is not likely to go down too well in streets that are plagued with crime and anti social behaviour and where victims feel that the system is loaded in favour of the criminals anyway.

Any response to this attica?

Apart from bollocks you mean?

Well, a lot of streets are not plagued by crime and anti social behaviour, a minority are. Around where I live are some well behaved youth, a lot of older values about respect and dignity too. The criminal justice system is objectively NOT loaded in favour of the 'criminals', that is total rubbish. It is increasingly being loaded in favour of the police and govt. What we have is a case of Orwellian double speak going on, it is divide and rule.

In situations like this democrats like myself keep a level head and engage with the world as it is, to demystify the social world through common sense understanding, events and arguments, and to redirect anger towards the system which produces chaos in the first place. The original sin lies with capital and the state, blaming the 'criminal' is a misnomer.

 

[Oswaldtwistle]

Indeed the law which says the rich, govt and business can legally rob us (note petrol prices for example), that protects property and food (in France you cannot go to jail for robbing food if you have no money on you), that says the rich and the poor are both free to live under the bridges of London.
.

I get the feeling you've spent rather too long reading from books/websites of political theory, my friend.

Of course the multi nationals rip us all off, but that applies to the honest poor just as much (indeed more so) than the dishonest.

 

[The Black Hand]

I get the feeling you've spent rather too long reading from books/websites of political theory, my friend.

Of course the multi nationals rip us all off, but that applies to the honest poor just as much (indeed more so) than the dishonest.

Your problem is that you are trying to see things in black and white - them and us. The problem is 'them' comes from 'us', they have as much right to be taken seriously as everybody else. In reality things are far more blurred than you are acknowledging.

This society created 'them', has created understandings in their heads, has made them think as they do, has enabled them to behave as they have, has taught them to throw their weight around, has labelled them and their behaviour, and created this issue. They didn't come from outside, they came from within, and if you want to create an 'outlaw' mad max mentality - go ahead, treat them as enemies - society will one day then have to wake up to the nightmare it has created.

1 in 3 men under 30 has a criminal record - everybody is doing something they shouldn't (this last phrase has been copywrited by me btw, it is the title of my forthcoming book)... And the old saying that he who is without sin should throw the first stone is also on the button.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I fear the prison business is only going to get larger and more women will be thrown into them, for no other reason than being poor and powerless.

Well, there is the small matter of those persons having been judged to have committed a crime.
Now while those "crimes" may, for the most part, be pathetic, the sort of thing one should serve a community punishment for at most, and the "criminals" themselves victims of circumstance, the only way change will be realised under current political conditions is via organisation, not through you making disingenuous statements.

 

[_angel_]

Well, there is the small matter of those persons having been judged to have committed a crime.
Now while those "crimes" may, for the most part, be pathetic, the sort of thing one should serve a community punishment for at most, and the "criminals" themselves victims of circumstance, the only way change will be realised under current political conditions is via organisation, not through you making disingenuous statements.

How many are in jail for not being able to pay a TV licence fine for example?

Some really stupid reasons for people (not just women) being in jail esp when they have mental health problems. It is easier to end up in jail if you're poor or powerless.

On the otherhand I don't want to see prisons abolished, just reformed. Some people need taking out of society for a long time because they're dangerous.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How many are in jail for not being able to pay a TV licence fine for example?

Some really stupid reasons for people (not just women) being in jail esp when they have mental health problems. It is easier to end up in jail if you're poor or powerless.

Precisely my point.
People are ending up there not because they deserve to be there, but because they've transgressed a law and are inappropriately punished.
That's why, if we retain our current political system, more focus has to be put on free and fair representation for those who can't afford to pay for it, rather than the current hit and miss system.

On the otherhand I don't want to see prisons abolished, just reformed. Some people need taking out of society for a long time because they're dangerous.

It's a pity we're too small a nation to have the facilities for internal exile.
I tried to come up with a British version of Siberia, but all I could think of was Rotherham.

 

[detective-boy]

Forget the knee jerk reactionaries on here, or just the jerks such as defective detective boy. Find out for yourself and do not let other fools put you off.

If you actually read my posts you'd find that (a) it's you who's indulging in knee-jerk reactionaryism (no change there then); (b) it's you that needs to "find out for yourself" (or there) and (c) you're a still a blinkered, prejudiced cunt (Hat-trick! Get in!!!!)