AF statement

[In Bloom]

have you any evidence to support this?

Well I've discussed Irish nationalism with a few current and former Class War members (including yourself once or twice, IIRC) and most seemed to have a largely positive view of Irish nationalism, I also remember Class War being deeply critical of Hezbollah during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon a couple of years ago.

Of course, it could be that Class War includes a broad range of views on both subjects, and it's just a coincidence that this is how I've always encountered it.

 

[Rod Sleeves]

Well I've discussed Irish nationalism with a few current and former Class War members (including yourself once or twice, IIRC) and most seemed to have a largely positive view of Irish nationalism, I also remember Class War being deeply critical of Hezbollah during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon a couple of years ago.

Hezbollah are not just a nationalist group are they? They have an overriding religious element as well.

 

[DeepStoat]

The AF doesn't recognise the existence of the middle class as a separate entity, we tend to see the middle class as being comprised of privileged sections of the working class and lower sections of the ruling class, whereas the middle class is somewhat fundamental to Class War's analysis. There's also the issue that Class War seem (from the AF's point of view) somewhat conflicted on the subject of national liberation movements (supportive when it's in Ireland, critical when it's in the Middle East), this conflicts with the AF's As+Ps:

There may be minute differences in the AF A&Ps compared to CW but I'm not convinced being a member of AF must exclude from you being in CW.

CW is surely a broad church and I'm sure out local group is not the only one made up with a large percentage of AFers.

 

[In Bloom]

There may be minute differences in the AF A&Ps compared to CW but I'm not convinced being a member of AF must exclude from you being in CW.

CW is surely a broad church and I'm sure out local group is not the only one made up with a large percentage of AFers.

I don't really see stuff like what we think about national liberation movements (and consequently about imperialism worldwide) or the structure of class society as minute differences though, I'd say that these are fairly basic cornerstones of our politics that have real consequences for our practical activities.

TBH, I'm a little unclear on how Class War does this sort of thing, do you have a set of written aims and principles?

 

[DeepStoat]

I don't really see stuff like what we think about national liberation movements (and consequently about imperialism worldwide) or the structure of class society as minute differences though, I'd say that these are fairly basic cornerstones of our politics that have real consequences for our practical activities.

TBH, I'm a little unclear on how Class War does this sort of thing, do you have a set of written aims and principles?

Our local group is in it's infancy and we'll be knocking up A&Ps this weekend.

 

[In Bloom]

Our local group is in it's infancy and we'll be knocking up A&Ps this weekend.

So local groups have their own As+Ps? How does that work with the national organisation?

 

[DeepStoat]

So local groups have their own As+Ps? How does that work with the national organisation?

We, will have our own As+Ps. I can't speak for anybody else.

 

[In Bloom]

We, will have our own As+Ps. I can't speak for anybody else.

Fair enough, I look forward to reading them.

So does CWF as a whole have political criteria for membership then?

 

[butchersapron]

Our local group is in it's infancy and we'll be knocking up A&Ps this weekend.

What % of your Class War group is in the AF? This situation seems utterly bizzare and pointless to me. I suppose it shows the value of the Brand though.

 

[DeepStoat]

I think it's necessary to be realistic and have aims that can be achieved locally as well as a national agenda.

 

[DeepStoat]

What % of your Class War group is in the AF? This situation seems utterly bizzare and pointless to me. I suppose it shows the value of the Brand though.

I'd say 80%. I do see the brand as valuable especially as we're about to enter a government dominated, just not by one uni, or one school but one club.

CW, as far as I see, will be more inclusive.

 

[butchersapron]

Sounds to me like people who actually agree with the AF's politics and organisational approach but who want to be able to say they're in Class War to their mums.

Sorry, but that looks to me like a ridiculous situation to me.

 

[Rod Sleeves]

What/where is your local group Deepstoat?

Interestingly the latest issue of Notes from the Borderland antifascist magazine quotes a far right activist saying that Classwar are the controllers of AFed and Antifa which are both recruitment fronts for CW, maybe they were right!!!!

 

[DeepStoat]

Sounds to me like people who actually agree with the AF's politics and organisational approach but who want to be able to say they're in Class War to their mums.

Sorry, but that looks to me like a ridiculous situation to me.

Ha!

As I said the coming political landscape, to my eyes, will be good for a renewed CW.

 

[Rod Sleeves]

Ha!

As I said the coming political landscape, to my eyes, will be good for a renewed CW.

Why bother with AFed then? What will you or your group benefit from being part of both federations?

 

[In Bloom]

What/where is your local group Deepstoat?

Interestingly the latest issue of Notes from the Borderland antifascist magazine quotes a far right activist saying that Classwar are the controllers of AFed and Antifa which are both recruitment fronts for CW, maybe they were right!!!!

Please tell me NftB doesn't take this shit seriously

 

[In Bloom]

I think it's necessary to be realistic and have aims that can be achieved locally as well as a national agenda.

Right, but does the national organisation have a clearly laid out set of principles?

 

[Rod Sleeves]

Please tell me NftB doesn't take this shit seriously

Er no, they take the piss.

 

[revlon]

Right, but does the national organisation have a clearly laid out set of principles?

class war aims and principles
sounds pretty compatible with the af's aims and principles

 

[In Bloom]

class war aims and principles
sounds pretty compatible with the af's aims and principles

I hate to nitpick, but there are contradictions there, Class War's class analysis being the one that sort of jumps out at me.

We must unite on the common basis of what we have in common - our Working Class background and needs.

Class War seem to have a somewhat sociological understanding of class, as opposed to the AF's communist understanding of class. Background is largely irrelevant if we're talking about organising around our class interests, John Prescott has a working class background, he also has ruling class interests as a politician.

 

[revlon]

I hate to nitpick, but there are contradictions there, Class War's class analysis being the one that sort of jumps out at me.

Class War seem to have a somewhat sociological understanding of class, as opposed to the AF's communist understanding of class. Background is largely irrelevant if we're talking about organising around our class interests, John Prescott has a working class background, he also has ruling class interests as a politician.

that's certainly one way of looking at at. And yes it is nitpicking (maybe just a little too hard).

Background maybe largely irrelevant when organising around class issues, but background ie upbringing, (where you lived, who you socialised with), family connections, experiences, conditions, expectations, lack of money, opportunity, social mobility, aspiration, education, sense of identity are the very things people recognise in themselves as to what working class [or indeed middle class] means to them. This is how we experience ourselves as working class. If that's the sociological understanding of class then it's one that's universal.

Reducing class to pure economism (or what you have called "communist understanding of class") devalues the thing that makes class a living relationship amongst real people rather than simply an expression of an ideological intent.

 

[The Black Hand]

Sounds to me like people who actually agree with the AF's politics and organisational approach but who want to be able to say they're in Class War to their mums.

Sorry, but that looks to me like a ridiculous situation to me.

You've never stopped being ridiculous.

 

[The Black Hand]

Right, but does the national organisation have a clearly laid out set of principles?

TBH I hope they are operating as more of a movement and action steering group. Thus rather than produce tedious A & P's and endless position papers that no ordinary people read, they actually do some class struggle....

 

[durruti02]

that's certainly one way of looking at at. And yes it is nitpicking (maybe just a little too hard).

Background maybe largely irrelevant when organising around class issues, but background ie upbringing, (where you lived, who you socialised with), family connections, experiences, conditions, expectations, lack of money, opportunity, social mobility, aspiration, education, sense of identity are the very things people recognise in themselves as to what working class [or indeed middle class] means to them. This is how we experience ourselves as working class. If that's the sociological understanding of class then it's one that's universal.

Reducing class to pure economism (or what you have called "communist understanding of class") devalues the thing that makes class a living relationship amongst real people rather than simply an expression of an ideological intent.

well put

btw cwf also used to add into the class argument the "order givers order takers" idea of class which i think is useful

 

[In Bloom]

that's certainly one way of looking at at. And yes it is nitpicking (maybe just a little too hard).

Background maybe largely irrelevant when organising around class issues, but background ie upbringing, (where you lived, who you socialised with), family connections, experiences, conditions, expectations, lack of money, opportunity, social mobility, aspiration, education, sense of identity are the very things people recognise in themselves as to what working class [or indeed middle class] means to them. This is how we experience ourselves as working class. If that's the sociological understanding of class then it's one that's universal.

Reducing class to pure economism (or what you have called "communist understanding of class") devalues the thing that makes class a living relationship amongst real people rather than simply an expression of an ideological intent.

So is it "nitpicking" or the difference between class as "a living relationship amongst real people" and class as "an expression or ideological intent"?

I don't really want to get into a debate about who's analysis is more accurate right now, I have more important things to be getting on with, my point is that there are contradictions between the AF's politics and Class War's politics (as you acknowledge yourself by your two paragraph defence of Class War's stance on something the AF sees differently), which is why I don't think dual membership is a good idea.

 

[The Black Hand]

So is it "nitpicking" or the difference between class as "a living relationship amongst real people" and class as "an expression or ideological intent"?

I don't really want to get into a debate about who's analysis is more accurate right now, I have more important things to be getting on with, my point is that there are contradictions between the AF's politics and Class War's politics (as you acknowledge yourself by your two paragraph defence of Class War's stance on something the AF sees differently), which is why I don't think dual membership is a good idea.

It seems self evident to me. The less expansive your politics are, the less popular your potential is. The more expansive and inclusive you are, the greater potential there is.

You carry on being neat and pure, and you're no better (and as irrelevant) as the ICC.

 

[In Bloom]

It seems self evident to me. The less expansive your politics are, the less popular your potential is. The more expansive and inclusive you are, the greater potential there is.

You carry on being neat and pure, and you're no better (and as irrelevant) as the ICC.

That depends on what you see the role of an anarchist political organisation as being though.

The AF doesn't aim to become a mass organisation or a representative organisation. We see our role as putting forward a coherent analysis, based on the history of class struggle and our own experiences, which we can then argue for within struggles which we are involved in.

 

[The Black Hand]

That depends on what you see the role of an anarchist political organisation as being though.

The AF doesn't aim to become a mass organisation or a representative organisation. We see our role as putting forward a coherent analysis, based on the history of class struggle and our own experiences, which we can then argue for within struggles which we are involved in.

'Nearly Madness' - 'One step removed'.

It seems to me that mass organisations does not have to be representative, to me its about doing. To be in something which aims to be so little, I really do not understand the limited ambition which you are failing to achieve anyway. Eg. @ the postal worker meeting at the bookfair - the KEY issue at the time, the AF definately DIDN'T do this;

"We see our role as putting forward a coherent analysis, based on the history of class struggle and our own experiences, which we can then argue for within struggles which we are involved in"

A couple of AF people did attend, but supplied nothing.

 

[In Bloom]

'Nearly Madness' - 'One step removed'.

It seems to me that mass organisations does not have to be representative, to me its about doing. To be in something which aims to be so little, I really do not understand the limited ambition which you are failing to achieve anyway. Eg. @ the postal worker meeting at the bookfair - the KEY issue at the time, the AF definately DIDN'T do this;

"We see our role as putting forward a coherent analysis, based on the history of class struggle and our own experiences, which we can then argue for within struggles which we are involved in"

A couple of AF people did attend, but supplied nothing.

If you say so. Personally, I don't think a meeting at an activist get together/back slapping session is a huge priority.

 

[The Black Hand]

If you say so. Personally, I don't think a meeting at an activist get together/back slapping session is a huge priority.

you're just like the old left, & there is no excuse. Writing off everything that is not linked to the party without any knowledge is just plain wrong & ignorant. That meeting was full of practical working class revolutionaries, it was very good (ask Rod if U want a 2nd view). if you are at all serious U cannot dismiss it like that.