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AF statement

Yes, I too thought it was a policy statement and as such to be welcomed. If it was only an article put together by an individual then it would help if this is clarified.

I had hoped AF - with all its aims and principles - was actually going to begin to reach out to others. Much more positive than dismissing other factions as "shit".

Are you and TBH (with ROH bringing up the rear) having a competition to see which non-sectarian can be most sectarian? Bizzare thread from the opening post in which you totally misread the article and put the opposite conclusion on it from that which was intended. That *is* shit.
 
Are you and TBH (with ROH bringing up the rear) having a competition to see which non-sectarian can be most sectarian? Bizzare thread from the opening post in which you totally misread the article and put the opposite conclusion on it from that which was intended. That *is* shit.

I stated I 'love them loads', which is true. I just don't get their politics. I asked for examples and they have not been forthcoming. That is sensible discussion.

I think its time for the old and classic sectarian corner thread to be reinvented, goes to find it....
 
I stated I 'love them loads', which is true. I just don't get their politics. I asked for examples and they have not been forthcoming. That is sensible discussion.
I do have a life, you know. I can't spend all day every day responding to your ill-informed nonsense.
 
The AF doesn't call actions and is the same as any other variety of leftism, parasiting on the back of other peoples struggles. There is nothing anarchistic about that.

As it goes I am not anti AF, I love you loads, but I seriously do not get the 'why AF' line at all if you have no struggles of your own. Its as if you join the Af and then cherry pick the struggle, it's far removed from the class struggle as I understand it.

As I understand anarchism it is about being in struggles; having militant responses/participation, calling initiatives/actions, linking struggles and I cannot see this anarchist part of the AF at all. Where is it?
Well I can only really speak for Merseyside group, but the way that we tend to work locally is that when we want to organise something around an issue, we'll contact other groups and individuals that we want to work with on it, arrange an initial meeting and then decide as a broader group how we want to respond. That's how the Workers' Fightback group got stated, which has organised fundraisers, produced calls for solidarity action with striking bin workers locally and tries to help striking workers in Merseyside make contacts with workers elsewhere. We don't do this stuff as just the AF because we want to get more people on board and work as a part of a wider movement, but the initiative to do it often seems to come from us or one of the other organised groups.

What the AF does very well as an organisation is produce prop arguing for anarchist communist ideas and tactics and help anarchist communists clarify our ideas and work on how well we put them across within the various forms of activity we're involved with.
 
Are you and TBH (with ROH bringing up the rear) having a competition to see which non-sectarian can be most sectarian? Bizzare thread from the opening post in which you totally misread the article and put the opposite conclusion on it from that which was intended. That *is* shit.

The concilliatory phrasing of the article probably caused me to reach the wrong conclusion. I was surprised to read what appeared to be a policy statement from AF that chimed a positive chord towards others. People do mis-read polemics. I'm sorry you should see it as "shit."
 
That's not the shit bit, the shit bit was using that misreading as a stick to beat the AF with. There simply was no need for it. If you'd left that last line off i suspect this thread might have gone differently. That's the only point i'm making here. As is stands it reads like i'm glad those AF bastards have decied to drop sectarianism, the sectarian bastards. I'm happy to move beyond that though - i reckon there is a useful wider discussion to be had about the article either way, about the points it makes about the problems small local groups face/conjure up and how to overcome them.
 
That's not the shit bit, the shit bit was using that misreading as a stick to beat the AF with. There simply was no need for it. If you'd left that last line off i suspect this thread might have gone differently. That's the only point i'm making here. As is stands it reads like i'm glad those AF bastards have decied to drop sectarianism, the sectarian bastards. I'm happy to move beyond that though - i reckon there is a useful wider discussion to be had about the article either way, about the points it makes about the problems small local groups face/conjure up and how to overcome them. It's not going to happen now though because it will be drowned in TBH's denunciations of everyone but gordon brown as ultra left.

Just ignore TBH; you've been doing fine so far.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
 
That's not the shit bit, the shit bit was using that misreading as a stick to beat the AF with. There simply was no need for it. If you'd left that last line off i suspect this thread might have gone differently. That's the only point i'm making here. As is stands it reads like i'm glad those AF bastards have decied to drop sectarianism, the sectarian bastards. I'm happy to move beyond that though - i reckon there is a useful wider discussion to be had about the article either way, about the points it makes about the problems small local groups face/conjure up and how to overcome them.

OK, I'll bite.

I think the AF article is partly arguing against a tendency that doesn't really exist - those that think we only need local groups - no one thinks that in my experience even the most hardened HSG member, support the idea of and need for national level organisation.

The other bit it's arguing against as I read it, is those who believe loose networks are the answer, the writer is on slightly firmer ground there, but even then I'd say it depends on what type of network. Networks can be useful as long as they are of real and functioning groups or projects that are rooted in place or community or populace.

Thirdly it argues for joining a national organisation as a place to share infomation, discuss politics, make international links, create and disseminate propaganda, coordinate activity, and cooperate to defend the independence of the broader struggles and movements - well you don't need to join a federation to do that, websites, forums, email lists and affinity groups etc can do all those things and have been demonstrated to do those things to the satisfaction of I think a large number of the people the article is aimed at.
 
Yes to their satisfaction. Maybe that's part of the problem?

National level organisation is not the same as national organisations. The latter entails membership, dues, min of political agreement etc. National level organisations is generally on either a popular or united front basis - i.e limited in time and aim with seperate particpating orgs. That's not to argue for one against the other, just to say that the national level stuff independent groups often favour is not the same as that of the AF etc, so that the argument that 'we already do it' doesn't really work. You've hit the key point when you say either approach must be rooted in "real and functioning groups or projects". It's all irelevant without that.
 
Yes to their satisfaction. Maybe that's part of the problem?

Absolutely - but this article because of the examples used doesn't really challenge that in my opinion.

National level organisation is not the same as national organisations. The latter entails membership, dues, min of political agreement etc. National level organisations is generally on either a popular or united front basis - i.e limited in time and aim with seperate participating orgs.

I agree, I worded it badly in my post - However in my experience most people who support local groups also agree with the need for a national organisation, along the lines argued for in the article - however (again in my experience) their main criticisms are that we are not ready yet, and that orgs like AFed are trying to create the national group first, whereas they would argue that you need to build real and functioning local groups first, and then federate them once you have a certain number - of course the nature of that federation is up for grabs, and many would argue for what is essentially a network or a united front.

That's not to argue for one against the other, just to say that the national level stuff independent groups often favour is not the same as that of the AF etc, so that the argument that 'we already do it' doesn't really work

I agree, and perhaps unsurprisingly (being a member of one) think there is a need for those anarchists who agree to work together in organisations with a minimum level of agreement, as well as in broader groups at the local and national level - but I do not see that this article is going to convince anyone of that, and I don't think the things it says are reasons for joining national feds are enough. I would have thought the main reason for joining a political organisation would be to help develop and work towards an actual political programme that can contribute to the building of working class power, this article skirts around that an mentions the icing while leaving out the cake.

As far as I can remember anyway, it's been a few weeks since I read it:o
 
That's not the shit bit, the shit bit was using that misreading as a stick to beat the AF with. There simply was no need for it. If you'd left that last line off i suspect this thread might have gone differently. That's the only point i'm making here. As is stands it reads like i'm glad those AF bastards have decied to drop sectarianism, the sectarian bastards. I'm happy to move beyond that though - i reckon there is a useful wider discussion to be had about the article either way, about the points it makes about the problems small local groups face/conjure up and how to overcome them.


This is a mis-reading of my mis-reading. I've never considered the AF to be "bastards." Rather than sectarianism I mis-read the article as one willing to move away from a position whereby other Anarchist factions are considered to be lower down the food chain. AF certainly isn't alone in this tendency but it built up a strong reputation for it. Take a trawl through the threads.
 
A) Well I can only really speak for Merseyside group, but the way that we tend to work locally is that when we want to organise something around an issue, we'll contact other groups and individuals that we want to work with on it, arrange an initial meeting and then decide as a broader group how we want to respond. That's how the Workers' Fightback group got stated, which has organised fundraisers, produced calls for solidarity action with striking bin workers locally and tries to help striking workers in Merseyside make contacts with workers elsewhere. We don't do this stuff as just the AF because we want to get more people on board and work as a part of a wider movement, but the initiative to do it often seems to come from us or one of the other organised groups.

B) What the AF does very well as an organisation is produce prop arguing for anarchist communist ideas and tactics and help anarchist communists clarify our ideas and work on how well we put them across within the various forms of activity we're involved with.

A) this to me is the really interesting part of politics, thankyou for sharing this. Useful stuff at last...

B) TBh I am not so sure about this, I would dearly love it to be true but it just doesn't do it for me. Too often it reads like A-level anarchism, awfully well meaning but completely useless other than for the already converted. There is and should be a difference between an internal bulletin type publication and the public face magazine. If there isn't, it is a waste.
 
it's more entertaining reading 'mayday' cover to cover than 'orangise'.

e2a: i think you'll find more people have read 'mayday' from cover to cover than have 'orangise'.

This is an interesting observation Pickman. There are some though who will deny it even if they do cos that is the sad sectarians they are.

Your observation is backed up by other evidence from a guy who said 'I'll buy a copy of Mayday, it is always stimulating' at the Bookfair...

TBH I'm just gonna crack on publishing what makes sense:)
 
OK, I'll bite.

I think the AF article is partly arguing against a tendency that doesn't really exist - those that think we only need local groups - no one thinks that in my experience even the most hardened HSG member, support the idea of and need for national level organisation.

The other bit it's arguing against as I read it, is those who believe loose networks are the answer, the writer is on slightly firmer ground there, but even then I'd say it depends on what type of network. Networks can be useful as long as they are of real and functioning groups or projects that are rooted in place or community or populace.

Thirdly it argues for joining a national organisation as a place to share infomation, discuss politics, make international links, create and disseminate propaganda, coordinate activity, and cooperate to defend the independence of the broader struggles and movements - well you don't need to join a federation to do that, websites, forums, email lists and affinity groups etc can do all those things and have been demonstrated to do those things to the satisfaction of I think a large number of the people the article is aimed at.

you're absolutely right, but the article's aimed at a very specific set of people. It actually reads like an open letter from the AF to certain individuals. As an article aimed at convincing those people to join a national organisatioin is it confusing (and frankly bizarre), simply because there are better ways of expressing the need to join a national federation than criticising local groups and networks, often needlessly.

We in the Anarchist Federation have strongly pushed for more effective organisation within the British anarchist movement ever since we were set up in 1985. Our own organisation has grown quite considerably over the last year or so, but we aim this article at other anarchists in the movement who are either thinking of committing to joining a national organisation but have not as yet done so and those who do not see the benefits of such a national organisation.

Alternatives frequently offered to the national organisation are 1. local groups and 2. networking, that is, relying on loose networks that come together over specific issues or campaigns. We in the AF have never been opposed to the setting up of local anarchist groups. In fact we see the putting down of roots in the local neighbourhood and workplaces as vitally important. Within the AF we strive to be involved in local activity and local issues as much as possible. However we do not subscribe to the idea put forward by some advocates of such groups that on their own local groups are enough for a vibrant anarchist movement. We often need to respond to attacks from the bosses and the State on a national level and that’s one good reason why we need national organisations. Some advocates of the local group idea are not completely opposed to the setting up of national organisations but they say that it must come from the coordination and coming together of local groups on a regional and national level. Whilst we in the AF support all efforts for greater effectiveness either regionally or nationally, we have to confess that we have not yet seen such a process coming about. National organisations and strong local groups are not incompatible, they should be part of the same process. Too often local groups with no connection to national structures can emerge in an area and then disappear followed by the appearance in the same area of another one later on, with no reference to the previous activity and history of groups that came before. Having a national perspective does not mean that this won’t happen again, but at least a national structure can ensure some continuity in terms of local contacts and the memory of what local groups had done before.

Similarly with networking. Whilst some networking has been effective, all too often, thanks to the lack of structures that ensure maximum and equal participation of its members, decision making and control of such networks are taken by informal hierarchies. There is not necessarily any permanence to such networks, with them coming and going, appearing and disappearing, just like local groups can.

We don’t think that the liberation of the working class, and through it the liberation of humanity as a whole, will come about on a purely spontaneous level. The road to revolution has not yet been built. It will come about through the development of a mass movement. That does not remove the need for specific organisations. The role such an organisation can play is not one of making the revolution on behalf of the masses, of being the single and centralised instrument of the revolution. It is above all an assembly of activists who seek to work within struggles and movements. It seeks to act as a memory for the working class, searching out and recalling the history of past struggles, and attempting to draw the lessons to be learned from their successes and failures. One of its functions should be to act as a propaganda grouping, ceaselessly and untiringly putting over a revolutionary message. It acts as a liaison for its militants, conveying information both here and abroad. It acts as a place for debate for militants, where ideas and experiences can be synthesised. By offering this place for debate, it counters localism, and fixation on single issues. It puts into practice its own strategies. It fights for the independence of struggles, for their self-organisation, against their co-option by reformism and electoralism. It puts forward initiatives for practical unity and debate wherever possible. Defending the independence and self-organisation of mass movements does not mean that the revolutionary organisation does not seek to spread its ideas in these movements. More than ever we need a strong and effective anarchist movement in this country ready to take part in the struggles that must come as capitalism in crisis attempts to impose its austerity programmes and cuts on our class and try to make us pay for its own crisis. This cannot come about through a loose and badly organised movement. It has to come about through greater and greater coordination and organisation where anarchists can more effectively coordinate, act and strike together against the enemy. We urge all anarchists to seriously think of joining a national anarchist organisation. Obviously we would like that choice to be the Anarchist Federation. However we are aware that some anarchists might have different emphases and points of view and might be attracted to another national organisation like, for example, the Solidarity Federation. Whatever the choice, think seriously about making that commitment. More and morewe need to be seen as a serious movement, one that can begin to grow and to fight back against the many attacks that have come and will come upon the working class. Organise!
 
If you agree with the AF's aims and principles then I don't really see how you can be a member of Class War and if you don't agree with the As+Ps, you shouldn't be a member of the AF. I don't really understand why somebody would want dual membership of two political organisations with conflicting politics in the first place, tbh.

How do you see the two conflicting?

I ask as we do have several AFeders that are joining CW and don't see a problem, nor do I.
 
I see you're still perpetuating the same tiresome lies about the AF.

The AF and its membership are involved in a wide range of activities, as you well know, and while we remain a small organisation in the grand scheme of things, we have more than doubled our membership in the last five or six years, I'd call that a fairly considerable growth.


Yes but nationally very insignificant.
 
How do you see the two conflicting?

I ask as we do have several AFeders that are joining CW and don't see a problem, nor do I.
The AF doesn't recognise the existence of the middle class as a separate entity, we tend to see the middle class as being comprised of privileged sections of the working class and lower sections of the ruling class, whereas the middle class is somewhat fundamental to Class War's analysis. There's also the issue that Class War seem (from the AF's point of view) somewhat conflicted on the subject of national liberation movements (supportive when it's in Ireland, critical when it's in the Middle East), this conflicts with the AF's As+Ps:
We are opposed to the ideology of national liberation movements which claims that there is some common interest between native bosses and the working class in face of foreign domination. We do support working class struggles against racism, genocide, ethnocide and political and economic colonialism. We oppose the creation of any new ruling class. We reject all forms of nationalism, as this only serves to redefine divisions in the international working class. The working class has no country and national boundaries must be eliminated. We seek to build an anarchist international to work with other libertarian revolutionaries throughout the world.

I'm not saying any of this as an attack on Class War, mind you, it's just that there are real political differences between our organisations, if that weren't the case, I'd be arguing for us to merge as soon as possible.
 
you say: the af seek to get rid of borders.

the ira say: we seek to do away with a border.

seems to me there's some basis to build on there.
 
There's also the issue that Class War seem (from the AF's point of view) somewhat conflicted on the subject of national liberation movements (supportive when it's in Ireland, critical when it's in the Middle East)
have you any evidence to support this?
 
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