Advice re: planning app on my estate
- Thread starter gaijingirl
- Start date
gaijingirl
Well-Known Member
Well I got a letter saying "Thank you for your comments on this proposal - I shall ensure these and any others received are taken into account before any decision is made."
So he hasn't read my letter then I take it since he's not answered my question.
Aaargh... SO frustrating.
So he hasn't read my letter then I take it since he's not answered my question.
Aaargh... SO frustrating.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
On the letter you were sent re the planning application it normally says the plans are for viewing at a local library and at the planning department which has know moved to north Lambeth.The file of documents should include any planning gain agreements/proposals(ie money to be spent on your estate as Section 106).
However from what u have said there are two issues here.The Council is selling its land to MHT.Probably at a discount(this is worth asking your local Councillor about)as "affordable" housing will be built there.In that case the money u where "consulted" about is the proceeds of the sale and not Section 106 (planning gain) money.Therefore its unconnected to the planning issue.
The other issues re bike parking,overlooking of existing buildings,access to open space and right of way are relevant planning issues IMO.You need to get your local Councillor on board as officers listen to them more.I think u need to look at the detailed plans and see your local Councillor(not email in the first instance) with a series of concerns.
I also think u need to ask your local Councillor to find out:
1)How much the site is being sold for.
2)Are the MHT buildings going to be all "affordable"(how many rented and how may shred ownership).Or is MHT going to be allowed to resell some of the plot onto a private developer.
3)Is the Council selling the land at a discount to MHT?
4)If there is to be shared ownership will people on your estate being given first choice on the shared ownership(which is New Labours way of getting us on the "property ladder".
5)Will the proceeds from the sale be "ring fenced" for your estate,put into the overall Council housing repair budget or your estate will get a percentage of the proceeds but not all?
However from what u have said there are two issues here.The Council is selling its land to MHT.Probably at a discount(this is worth asking your local Councillor about)as "affordable" housing will be built there.In that case the money u where "consulted" about is the proceeds of the sale and not Section 106 (planning gain) money.Therefore its unconnected to the planning issue.
The other issues re bike parking,overlooking of existing buildings,access to open space and right of way are relevant planning issues IMO.You need to get your local Councillor on board as officers listen to them more.I think u need to look at the detailed plans and see your local Councillor(not email in the first instance) with a series of concerns.
I also think u need to ask your local Councillor to find out:
1)How much the site is being sold for.
2)Are the MHT buildings going to be all "affordable"(how many rented and how may shred ownership).Or is MHT going to be allowed to resell some of the plot onto a private developer.
3)Is the Council selling the land at a discount to MHT?
4)If there is to be shared ownership will people on your estate being given first choice on the shared ownership(which is New Labours way of getting us on the "property ladder".
5)Will the proceeds from the sale be "ring fenced" for your estate,put into the overall Council housing repair budget or your estate will get a percentage of the proceeds but not all?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
By the way these planning things drag on for ages so its still worth putting comments in after the deadline.
If there is opposition it should go to Planning Committtee.As you have written comments you should be informed.Your local Councillor can make representations to the committee.
It is really worth attending and speaking at the committee.The Councillors on this committee IMO are independant minded.They could defer decision to do a site visit.
As your are on an estate do you have a residents association?
If there is opposition it should go to Planning Committtee.As you have written comments you should be informed.Your local Councillor can make representations to the committee.
It is really worth attending and speaking at the committee.The Councillors on this committee IMO are independant minded.They could defer decision to do a site visit.
As your are on an estate do you have a residents association?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
gaijingirl said:Well I got a letter saying "Thank you for your comments on this proposal - I shall ensure these and any others received are taken into account before any decision is made."
So he hasn't read my letter then I take it since he's not answered my question.
If the matter goes to the Planning Committee for decision(which is what u want IMO) then the comments are part of the report to the Planning Committee Councillors.
The above quote is standard planning speak.
It may be worth ringing up the planning officer designated for this application(there name and number is on the letter you received) to ask if its going to committee and whether he/she is asking MHT to alter there plans.
A planning officer make recommendations-accept plans/refuse or alter.Sometimes he/she can uses officers discretion to accept/refuse plans at other times it has to be referred to committee.
I'll second the seeing a councillor option. when I saw one for a similar problem, he was with us, me and the tenant association. he actually spoke on our behalf at meeting where the discussion was made. he was also full of information on how the planning process worked, having been on the planning committee previously. we won.
gaijingirl
Well-Known Member
Sorry... I meant to post a thank you for all this advice. It's just getting to be more and more of a nightmare. I've written to the planning dept for the 3rd time now asking for an answer to my question - but they're just not replying. 
and get a councillor to write on your behalf, as well, to demand a reply to your previous letters and why they haven't been answered. some of these people are crafty and don't want people to exercise their rights and object to decisions they have already made before the formal proceedings are over. I have been through that.
gaijingirl
Well-Known Member
Fuzzy said:
Oh believe me I have - they don't seem to pick up the phone..
But, in general, I would prefer to have their reply to this particular question in writing. Clearly they don't want to give it. All in all, makes me think that it's all pie in the sky.Will have another go at it tomorrow. It's practically a full time job this!
gaijingirl
Well-Known Member
guinnessdrinker said:
Hmm.. yes maybe I'll add that to my list of things to do tomorrow. I'm also trying to set up a meeting with a bloke at housing regeneration who seems v. keen to make sure that the changes happen to the estate.
gaijingirl said:Oh believe me I have - they don't seem to pick up the phone..
QUOTE]
that's another bureaucratic trick. in Southwark, they've made sure to change peoples's numbers in the ex-housing department (that's another story.....) to make sure no one phoned them up to complain.
gaijingirl said:Hmm.. yes maybe I'll add that to my list of things to do tomorrow. I'm also trying to set up a meeting with a bloke at housing regeneration who seems v. keen to make sure that the changes happen to the estate.
be very careful when you deal with bureaucrats very keen on "regeneration". in Southwark, it usually means large scale demolition.
gaijingirl
Well-Known Member
guinnessdrinker said:
To be fair to this guy - his thing is this scheme whereby they get professional gardeners round to teach estate members to sort out their land. It seems to have been quite successful and some of the estates round here (notably at the bottom of Brixton Hill) have gorgeous communal gardens We've got a lovely bit of land that currently is covered in dog shit and nappies thrown out of the upper flat windows...
thanks for the advice though - I'm rapidly giving up hope tbh...
Fuzzy said:
there is also the fact that they have to take you seriously, while ordinary members of the public can be much more easily ignored.
gaijingirl
Well-Known Member
Finally spoke to the planning officer. I was given the wrong telephone number for him by one of his colleages - which is why no one ever answered. He has ignored all of my emails and letters - I've never had a response from him.
He finally found my email - clearly had never read it before.
Basically he couldn't help me at all. He says he doesn't know what is happening with the money (which as Gramsci says is not yet a section 106). He said he would ask the architects tomorrow. Well I've already spoken to the architects and they said I should ask him.
He also said that I can put in comments after the 11th and they will be taken into consideration - but I don't have that in writing.
Tried to make comments today on the public access site but "due to a backlog" - his words not mine - this application is not on there. So I will have to go to the library to do it or write to them again (is there any point??)
I can't tell you how frustrated I am. It was not a pleasant conversation - I gave him quite a hard time but he just wouldn't give me any answers, didn't even bother to apologise for ignoring all my correspondence and kept going on about how he was going to be late for some meeting or other.
I'm going to email Toren Smith now. I'm fed up to the back teeth with this - it's ridiculous. Minutes after the tel call, I got an email from Interim Head of Development Control, the initial "stage 1 complaint" about my letters going unanswered - saying that my complaint has been passed on to the planning officer to deal with.
It's just going around in circles. All I want is an answer to the same question I've been asking now since the beginning of December and no one seems to be able to reply.This is really stressing me out now and I resent it.
Fuzzy
Hearts Cov
now that you have spoken to the planning officer a phone call or meeting with one of your ward councillors would be advisable. if you let your councillor know that you are not satisfied with the response from the planning officer the councillor has a much better way in to someone at the top of the planning department so should hopefully be able to get a better answer than you.
gaijingirl
Well-Known Member
Fuzzy said:
Oh, the first thing I did when I came off the phone, very upset, was write a long email to Toren Smith...
(((((((((Toren))))))))))
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
Gajingirl, I'd advise you to go through the council's complaints procedure - I can see you've already submitted a Stage 1 complaint. You should have, or have had, an interim response to this pretty quickly saying when you should expect to get a reply, and from whom.
Make sure that you have made it clear that it is a formal complaint.
Going by the council I work for (not Lambeth!!) you should get a formal reply within a specific time period, with details of who you should go to if the response to your Stage 1 complaint doesn't fully satisfy what you want to know.
If that is not satisfactory you can go to the local government Ombudsman. The Ombudsman will investigate earlier if necessary, e.g. if you wrote a formal complaint months ago & got no response, get onto them a.s.a.p.
Councils will shit themselves and jump at the thought of an Ombudsman investigation. You go girl, & all that!
Make sure that you have made it clear that it is a formal complaint.
Going by the council I work for (not Lambeth!!) you should get a formal reply within a specific time period, with details of who you should go to if the response to your Stage 1 complaint doesn't fully satisfy what you want to know.
If that is not satisfactory you can go to the local government Ombudsman. The Ombudsman will investigate earlier if necessary, e.g. if you wrote a formal complaint months ago & got no response, get onto them a.s.a.p.
Councils will shit themselves and jump at the thought of an Ombudsman investigation. You go girl, & all that!
gaijingirl
Well-Known Member
Thank Oryx... the level 1 complaint - was somehow got made for me?, I didn't actually write a letter of complaint, I just sent the same original letter a 2nd time pointing out that no one had replied the first time round.
I got a reply on Thursday to say it had been sent to that same planning officer, who didn't reply originally - the one who never replied to my emails either, to deal with... It certainly doesn't seem very formal and there's definitely no details of who I should go to if the response to your Stage 1 complaint doesn't fully satisfy what I want to know and as usual it doesn't answer my questions about the money to be spent on the estate - it just repeats the same stock phrase that I keep hearing... "I will also ensure that your comments on the scheme are included in the report determining the application." So I keep asking a question (the same one, repeatedly) and I keep getting the reply "I will ensure your comments are heard"...
I'm going to wait and see what happens with Toren Smith and also call my contact at regeneration to set up a meeting to try and make plans for the estate at least.
I really appreciate the advice I'm getting on here - it's such a mine of disinformation, being ignored and generally a merry-go-round of stress!
I got a reply on Thursday to say it had been sent to that same planning officer, who didn't reply originally - the one who never replied to my emails either, to deal with...
It certainly doesn't seem very formal and there's definitely no details of who I should go to if the response to your Stage 1 complaint doesn't fully satisfy what I want to know and as usual it doesn't answer my questions about the money to be spent on the estate - it just repeats the same stock phrase that I keep hearing... "I will also ensure that your comments on the scheme are included in the report determining the application." So I keep asking a question (the same one, repeatedly) and I keep getting the reply "I will ensure your comments are heard"... I'm going to wait and see what happens with Toren Smith and also call my contact at regeneration to set up a meeting to try and make plans for the estate at least.
I really appreciate the advice I'm getting on here - it's such a mine of disinformation, being ignored and generally a merry-go-round of stress!
lang rabbie
Je ne regrette les gazebos
I think you are in the (not uncommon position) of being stuck between the incompetence of Lambeth Housing and the bureaucracy of Lambeth Planning.
(((gaijingirl)))
[Warning - paragraphs that follow may contain both rambling planning bits and jaded political cynicism]
What happens to the money from the land sale is strictly not "a relevant planning consideration" - it is just part of the deal between Lambeth Housing and Metropolitan to sell the site at a discount to full market value in return for nomination rights to some/all the tenancies. Presumably any sale to Metropolitan is subject to planning consent.
The Housing Department ought to have kept people on the estate up to date on what was planned with the money. My suspicion is that given the apparent Housing budget shortfall, they are trying to divert as much money from these sales as possible to other housing projects.
This is where you need to force Toren Smith to be challenging his Labour Party colleagues responsible for the Department on where the money is going, as well as pressing the planning department.
Until you have confirmation of whether local environmental improvements on the estate are going to be funded from the land sale, you can't know for sure whether you still need to demand them, either as specific planning conditions to minimise the "loss of amenity" some tenants will suffer, or as a cash contribution for planning gain, secured by a legal section 106 agreement.
So, as a precaution, I'd recommend that you make sure that your comments and questions on the planning application are officially recorded as an objection. Write a follow up letter, copied to the Interim Head of Development Control, saying that in the absence of information to assure you that the scheme will not have an adverse impact on the residential amenity, secure parking facilties, access to play space (or whatever factors are most important to you and your neighbours) you wish this and your earlier comments to be counted as an objection.
Even better, get your neighbours to write in in similar terms. This way there is a greater chance that the overall package of environmental improvements for the estate will get tied down in a legally binding agreement linked to the planning consent, rather than just relying on the word of Lambeth housing officers.
Metropolitan's project budget will have made assumptions about the total amount they have to pay for site purchase, on-site environmental improvements and any section 106 obligations. My experience is that Housing Associations seldom expect to have to stump up section 106 cash.
I haven't spoken to anyone from Friends of Brockwell Park, but I suspect they'll be asking for Metropolitan to put some money towards a more appropriate boundary fence/hedge with the park. This could be in competition with the estate for a share of the pot.
It should be possible to get a lot of of this thrashed out by "political" intervention before any planning meeting, through a public and non-deniable public commitment by the Council that the housing department will be paying for most of the works. But unless tenants are down as registered objectors to the project, there is a danger that the scheme will just get pushed through, because extra social housing is seen as "a good thing".
(a) My suspicion is that in the current near-crisis management position of the housing department - with half the staff fighting to keep their jobs and proposals for the ALMO transfer dominating both senior staff and councillors' thinking - no one in the department is actively looking at this project.
(b) My experience of Lambeth's planning department is that many planning officers just bung all correspondence on a planning application on the case file, and only start to read it all once the closing date for comments has passed and they have to start summarising the objections for any planning committee hearing. They are just used to objections. Request for information don't get read until far too late in the process.
(b) My experience of Lambeth's planning department is that many planning officers just bung all correspondence on a planning application on the case file, and only start to read it all once the closing date for comments has passed and they have to start summarising the objections for any planning committee hearing. They are just used to objections. Request for information don't get read until far too late in the process.
(((gaijingirl)))
[Warning - paragraphs that follow may contain both rambling planning bits and jaded political cynicism]
What happens to the money from the land sale is strictly not "a relevant planning consideration" - it is just part of the deal between Lambeth Housing and Metropolitan to sell the site at a discount to full market value in return for nomination rights to some/all the tenancies. Presumably any sale to Metropolitan is subject to planning consent.
The Housing Department ought to have kept people on the estate up to date on what was planned with the money. My suspicion is that given the apparent Housing budget shortfall, they are trying to divert as much money from these sales as possible to other housing projects.
This is where you need to force Toren Smith to be challenging his Labour Party colleagues responsible for the Department on where the money is going, as well as pressing the planning department.
Until you have confirmation of whether local environmental improvements on the estate are going to be funded from the land sale, you can't know for sure whether you still need to demand them, either as specific planning conditions to minimise the "loss of amenity" some tenants will suffer, or as a cash contribution for planning gain, secured by a legal section 106 agreement.
So, as a precaution, I'd recommend that you make sure that your comments and questions on the planning application are officially recorded as an objection. Write a follow up letter, copied to the Interim Head of Development Control, saying that in the absence of information to assure you that the scheme will not have an adverse impact on the residential amenity, secure parking facilties, access to play space (or whatever factors are most important to you and your neighbours) you wish this and your earlier comments to be counted as an objection.
Even better, get your neighbours to write in in similar terms. This way there is a greater chance that the overall package of environmental improvements for the estate will get tied down in a legally binding agreement linked to the planning consent, rather than just relying on the word of Lambeth housing officers.
Metropolitan's project budget will have made assumptions about the total amount they have to pay for site purchase, on-site environmental improvements and any section 106 obligations. My experience is that Housing Associations seldom expect to have to stump up section 106 cash.
I haven't spoken to anyone from Friends of Brockwell Park, but I suspect they'll be asking for Metropolitan to put some money towards a more appropriate boundary fence/hedge with the park. This could be in competition with the estate for a share of the pot.
It should be possible to get a lot of of this thrashed out by "political" intervention before any planning meeting, through a public and non-deniable public commitment by the Council that the housing department will be paying for most of the works. But unless tenants are down as registered objectors to the project, there is a danger that the scheme will just get pushed through, because extra social housing is seen as "a good thing".
gaijingirl
Well-Known Member
Brilliant.. thanks that's invaluable advice. I can see I'm going to be very busy. I might write a stock letter and take it round the estate and see if I can get people to sign it and include a printed list of their names and addresses (which will doubtless cause all kinds of problems - see below) - do you think that will do? If I'm completely honest, I think that lots of people on the estate won't get around to writing a letter, or would struggle to do so for various reasons.
FoBP (I'm a member and have spoken to them about various things to do with this) are asking for a portion of the land to increase the park at the Tulse Hill Entrance - fair enough I reckon! The choice was that or we get another community centre to be used how we see fit, but the (extremely divisive) residents' committee members who have since imploded in a tangle of in-group arguments, losing the "community flat" in the process, vetoed that idea.
As an aside, I also wrote to the "community liaison" person at the Housing Office saying that I would be willing to be involved with any kind of residents group - but never heard back from them either...
I feel quite overwhelmed tbh...
FoBP (I'm a member and have spoken to them about various things to do with this) are asking for a portion of the land to increase the park at the Tulse Hill Entrance - fair enough I reckon! The choice was that or we get another community centre to be used how we see fit, but the (extremely divisive) residents' committee members who have since imploded in a tangle of in-group arguments, losing the "community flat" in the process, vetoed that idea.
As an aside, I also wrote to the "community liaison" person at the Housing Office saying that I would be willing to be involved with any kind of residents group - but never heard back from them either...
I feel quite overwhelmed tbh...
gaijingirl
Well-Known Member
Gramsci - I have been in touch with my local councillor - I've now had a reply from him - (is it wrong to post this kind of correspondence publicly? I can't see why it would be, but don't want to jeopardise anything).
Thank you for your email. I have been trying to follow the planning
application from a distance - as I am member of the planning committee
and I am expecting this to come before us. I am obliged by our standing
orders to make a judgement on applications before they are determined.
Your questions are quite valid, however, I am not surprised that the
Council Planning Officer and caseworker for this application cannot
answer them. They really are matters for the applicant.
I am copying this email for a response to XXXX XXXXXX (the person I mentioned previously who I'm trying to set a meeting up with - nice guy - into the gardening thing) who is responsible for this application in the Council's housing department.
The questions he refers to are basically the list that Lang Rabbie suggested plus my question about how exactly, the money will be spent. I'm calling XXXX XXXXXX tomorrow morning for a chat and to try and set up a meeting.
Thank you for your email. I have been trying to follow the planning
application from a distance - as I am member of the planning committee
and I am expecting this to come before us. I am obliged by our standing
orders to make a judgement on applications before they are determined.
Your questions are quite valid, however, I am not surprised that the
Council Planning Officer and caseworker for this application cannot
answer them. They really are matters for the applicant.
I am copying this email for a response to XXXX XXXXXX (the person I mentioned previously who I'm trying to set a meeting up with - nice guy - into the gardening thing) who is responsible for this application in the Council's housing department.
The questions he refers to are basically the list that Lang Rabbie suggested plus my question about how exactly, the money will be spent. I'm calling XXXX XXXXXX tomorrow morning for a chat and to try and set up a meeting.
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