Advertising Campaign for ID cards starts
- Thread starter moon23
- Start date
So we should sit back and trust in the Tories to sort this mess out for us? What planet are you on if you think a political party once elected will stick to a promise, and BTW the election hasn't happened yet so don't count your eggs just yet.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
and, of course, the campaign isn't simply about the cards themselves anyway, the tories may have promised to abolish the NIR and contact point, but they still seem happy for fully biometric passports, and the ways in which councils they run are happy to use surveillance to spy on people voerfilling their blue bins and the like shows there will most definitely still need to be a campaign against them.
Ha ha. Yeah. Something to look forward to there. We definitely need more campaigns against this-or-that. It’s what it’s all about. The over filling of the bins is especially hot. You could link up with the Taxpayers Alliance. I'm sure they can be "trusted" to help sort it out.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
Exactly, the National Identity Database the cars will be linked to is far scarier than carrying a bit of plastic with your name and address on (although I don't support that, either). If Labour had an inch of smarts, they'd box clever, drop the cards, and retain the database, which is where their power will really lie. Wouldn't be surprised if the Tories kept the database while noisily ditching the cards and blowing a libertarian trumpet. Talk about having your cake and eating it!
1: the only bit of your identity that the government doesn't issue already is your name (and date/place of birth).. if you aren't aware, your parents give you that. everything else is government issued
2: the databases of all this information already exist, there is nothing to stop them aggregating the information from several onto one. with or without your knowledge or indeed consent. you have already implied consent to the storage of this data when you inform the agency of the information or apply for a license/passport. DPA doesn't give you the right to specify how that data is stored or where. it never has done. you've missed the boat on this issue by 15 years
3: the area of focus should be to ensure that legislation is kept robust as to who can access what, when and what for, the DPA is already pretty tight. having additional levels of security wont hurt
2: the databases of all this information already exist, there is nothing to stop them aggregating the information from several onto one. with or without your knowledge or indeed consent. you have already implied consent to the storage of this data when you inform the agency of the information or apply for a license/passport. DPA doesn't give you the right to specify how that data is stored or where. it never has done. you've missed the boat on this issue by 15 years
3: the area of focus should be to ensure that legislation is kept robust as to who can access what, when and what for, the DPA is already pretty tight. having additional levels of security wont hurt
Different people draw their own lines in different places, or not at all, never, they just go with the flow.
Funny old world isn't it?
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
I think it was a mistake to abolish grand juries, 70 years after the fact, so that's not going to phase me.
Regardless of whether the government have the info already (and they don't, certainly not the entire population's fingerprints) moves to consolidate it can be resisted. Just because they can theoretically do something doesn't mean they should be allowed to without protest. And if they do it anyway, it can be repealed. As can any attack on liberty. "A lost liberty can't be restored," some say. Cobblers. Has been before and will be again.
The database will be consigned to the dustbin of history one day. Question is whether we let it rise to begin with.
I think it was a mistake to abolish grand juries, 70 years after the fact, so that's not going to phase me.
Regardless of whether the government have the info already (and they don't, certainly not the entire population's fingerprints) moves to consolidate it can be resisted. Just because they can theoretically do something doesn't mean they should be allowed to without protest. And if they do it anyway, it can be repealed. As can any attack on liberty. "A lost liberty can't be restored," some say. Cobblers. Has been before and will be again.
The database will be consigned to the dustbin of history one day. Question is whether we let it rise to begin with.
ahhhhh! but do "they" have your DNA...... think "national blood transfusion service"
they do have my fingerprints and my DNA, probably part of the reason i don't give a shit lol
Maurice Picarda
Actually, might as well flounce.
I'm absolutely on your side on this but I'm not sure you're 100% right on the legalities. If there weren't a couple of legal issues around sharing and aggregating data there wouldn't have been a need to put an enabling clause into the coroners and justice bill.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
That is your prerogative (although if you've not got a conviction you've a decent shot at getting both destroyed) but plenty of people do care.ahhhhh! but do "they" have your DNA...... think "national blood transfusion service"
they do have my fingerprints and my DNA, probably part of the reason i don't give a shit lol
As for extracting DNA from blood, I don't believe it's on a national database tied to my name, and unless I begin sporting a tinfoil hat, I won't start to!
It's not just about individual bits of data, but a general shift to the sort of country where the onus is on the people to justify themselves to the state, instead of vice versa. It's a ghastly idea, plus the cards are ruinously expensive, have to potential to cause all kinds of upset if data is messed up, and are in short pointless and oppressive in equal measure. I don't see how anyone who values freedom could support such a scheme.
do you have a linky for me?
ive scanned through the bills progress debates but cant see the part you refer towas it specific to sharing or to aggregating?
its my belief that no data on the ID database will be shared across agencies (and certainly not with tescos! ) without consent as is the case under DPA now (subject to same conditions and exemptions) so it would be intersting to know what's different about the C&J bill
cheers
Maurice Picarda
Actually, might as well flounce.
I just meant clause 152, which is the one that everyone knows and yes, is about using for a purpose other than that for which originally intended. But aggregating is pretty pointless without sharing, unless you're just thinking about saving on Oracle licenses and hosting costs.
well you better fuck me up the arse with a red hot poker
my apologies, this has (fuck knows how... i have partied hard this year) completed passed my synapses by, i never made any connection between the two i had heard of 152 but yes in the context of "the coroners bill" so paid absolutely no attention to it at all
ok. well in that case, i best be eating humble pie and asking if anyone has a spare banner
i cannot accept id scheme with that in the pot. that is something against my fundamental beliefs
fuck
I suppose because we live in a society were everyone is presumed to be on the take then proving who you are, and what your history and circumstances are, then the ID becomes essential. If the elite are daily skimming off the national wealth for some personal or political gain why shouldn't we all be at it? In the end, it's always your working Joe or Jennifer who ends up with the most surviellance. One day we'll all end up with bar codes on our foreheads.
But I don't want a society where every communication with an agency requires me first to give my DOB and the first line of my address. I confess I do have something to hide. I call it my privacy. And I try to hold on to that. I don't want to be a digit in a units column.
Trying to live like this ometimes gets me into trouble. Last month, picking up a parcel from the Post Office, I was asked for ID and presented my Anarchist ID card. The young woman behind the grill called the supervisor who refused to hand over the package. But I had caught sight of the parcel and it was unwanted, under-stamped junk. I claimed to know who I was and offered my bond-word as a gentleman. To no avail. I walked out, went home, and had a stiff camomlie tea.
But I don't want a society where every communication with an agency requires me first to give my DOB and the first line of my address. I confess I do have something to hide. I call it my privacy. And I try to hold on to that. I don't want to be a digit in a units column.
Trying to live like this ometimes gets me into trouble. Last month, picking up a parcel from the Post Office, I was asked for ID and presented my Anarchist ID card. The young woman behind the grill called the supervisor who refused to hand over the package. But I had caught sight of the parcel and it was unwanted, under-stamped junk. I claimed to know who I was and offered my bond-word as a gentleman. To no avail. I walked out, went home, and had a stiff camomlie tea.
Yes, but there is a differeance between taking someone's word at face value then hoping they will get elected, and keeping up intense political pressure. Do you really think anything happens in politics without the later?
Really? What does a picture of this “difference” look like then? A march of the ususal eccentric suspects. Let’s face it, the difference exists only in terms of an emotional sensation in the head of self styled activists.moon23 said:
What “happens in politics” is some stuff gets written into law and a little programme is put together to marshal resources to some end. If people resist the law, they get some punishment. The idea that each time that happens there’s been “intense political pressure” (the threat of violent retribution unless some collective will is implemented) is somewhat melodramatic.moon23 said:
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
golly gosh, bullshit merchant talks bullshit!
Your imagination is distinctly limited isn't it? If that is the only difference you choose to see, that's your problem.
well you better fuck me up the arse with a red hot poker
my apologies, this has (fuck knows how... i have partied hard this year) completed passed my synapses by, i never made any connection between the two i had heard of 152 but yes in the context of "the coroners bill" so paid absolutely no attention to it at all
ok. well in that case, i best be eating humble pie and asking if anyone has a spare banner
i cannot accept id scheme with that in the pot. that is something against my fundamental beliefs
fuck
The other worrying part is that although it’s true that much of the data on the NIR is available in various different systems, the current information is stored in silo’s and pulling it all together is no mean feat. The idea of the NIR is to create a central index to which all the other data can be easily linked and thus extracted with a suitable front-end program. This creates a huge surveillance tool that can be exploited for a wide range of possibilities by and future government. It’s a dangerous tool that just shouldn’t be placed in the hands of any government.
Under the Identity Cards Act 2006 the Home Secretary can designate any document, meaning that in order to obtain that document you need to be on the NIR. That means submitting your fingerprints, facial biometrics, 50+ pieces of information. Once on the register it will be your legal responsibility to update it, so every time you move or change circumstance you have to let HM Gov know about it, or risk fines.
Whilst if you own a car you might have to do this to DVLA already you can always choose not to have a car, there is no definitive requirement to inform the state per se, just the individual agency you are interacting with for a particular service. You personal Identity is not a fixed thing in a legal sense by a natural combination of various things. There are legal documents such as passports, but a passport is only a document that proves your legal right to travel, in theory you still have a legal right to travel without one. The very idea of an ‘Identity document’ that proves your Identity rather than proves your legal rights for specific interactions is a relatively new thing.
The ID card scheme seeks to change all of that and alter the fundamental relationship we as people have with the state. It seeks to become THE definitive legal way in which we as people are defined. This totally alters the nature of our way of life, we are no longer free people, or subjects, but defined as citizens with rights and responsibilities only in relation to our abstract Identity controlled by IPS and represented on an ID card.
By securing control over the way we define and identify ourselves and creating a society in which Identity vilification is tracked by the state the ruling class are exerting power and controlling the population.
Is that the best trolling you can manange?
No, Focault
Knowledge linked to power, not only assumes the authority of 'the truth' but has the power to make itself true. All knowledge, once applied in the real world, has effects, and in that sense at least, 'becomes true.' Knowledge, once used to regulate the conduct of others, entails constraint, regulation and the disciplining of practice. Thus, 'There is no power relation without the correlative constitution of a field of knowledge, nor any knowledge that does not presuppose and constitute at the same time, power relations (Foucault. Discipline and Punishment, London, Tavistock, 1977, p27.)
Yeah yeah. Tell us, don't you imagine you're being controlled, herded even, by falling into the choreographed role of “activist”? These so called issues are just distractions, dilemmas in bourgeois justice which discredit and marginalise the very idea of thinking politically and addressing the actual matter confronting the working class, namely the positive organisation of production. Instead we twitter endlessly like some Guardian readers' wet dream. Defend this, defend that, defy this, defy that. Please.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
could you please shut the fuck up and fuck off you're spouting shite that even i wouldn't come out with... you fucking moronic cretinous shit...
who were you before son?
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