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Adam Curtis is back!

Firky

The first of the gang
Banned
The Trap: What Happened to Our Dreams of Freedom?

9pm Tonight, BBC 2.


This time he is attempting to tell the story of the rise of today’s narrow idea of freedom and it should make interesting viewing. According to the BBC it will show how “a simplistic model of human beings as self-seeking, almost robotic, creatures led to today’s idea of freedom. This model was derived from ideas and techniques developed by nuclear strategists during the Cold War. It was then taken up by genetic biologists, anthropologists, radical psychiatrists and free market economists, until it became a new system of invisible control.”

Many of you have seen the other series of films he has made. My favourite being 'The Century of the Self'. They explored how, whilst psychoanalytic therapy is a dying out, Freudian influence is still very much alive in many areas from business to politics to social attitudes, due to the involvement of the man who invented PR, Freud’s nephew, Edward Bernays. The Power of Nightmares was good but it was pretty much what we knew already.
 
I missed most of it because my dad kept rabbiting on about when he met Ronald Laing and how Curtis has totally ignored ontological security :rolleyes:
 
well that was very good. i'd not thought about some of that stuff for a long while. look forward to next week's episode.
i do find that curtis has a bit of a suspiciously intense slant to his assertions though - i found that in the other two documentaries that he did too.
alarm bells start to ring. though definitely worth seeing & perhaps worth reading about via other sources as well.
the laing/rosenheim stuff was really cool though.
 
interesting stuff

very interesting the experiement where they sent 7 people to mental institutions, with an instruction just to say they could hear the word "thud" in their head, they were all declared mentally ill....cue big controversy when it was revealed that the hospitals had been conned...

do it again said the hopsitals , who then confidently said they had found 41 people who had been sent

the bloke running the experiement hadn't actually sent any:rolleyes:
 
I Think that was a bit wrong myself. It is all risk assessment (which is oddly enough what the crux of the episode is about), the doctors believed there may be a risk, no matter how small, that these people may be of danger to themselves or others. Better safe than sorry kind of thing.
 
firky said:
I Think that was a bit wrong myself. It is all risk assessment (which is oddly enough what the crux of the episode is about), the doctors believed there may be a risk, no matter how small, that these people may be of danger to themselves or others. Better safe than sorry kind of thing.
yeah, but the fact is, it radically changed psychiatry, for the better.
 
firky said:
I Think that was a bit wrong myself. It is all risk assessment (which is oddly enough what the crux of the episode is about), the doctors believed there may be a risk, no matter how small, that these people may be of danger to themselves or others. Better safe than sorry kind of thing.

i think it asked bigger questions about the nature of mental illness and who was qualified to treat it
 
But those people who are qualified to treat it have a great onus on their shoulders. To protect the lives of the client and to some extent society, the risk of letting someone whom may be a danger to themselves and or others is too great. It is a 'safer' risk to bang them up. If they are a danger then they're not going to do much in care, and if they're not a danger, well they're not going to do anything anyway. You get to keep the diamond you stole.
 
Was Laing really that influential? I'd always thought he only really hit it off amongst a few hippy types, whereas the programme seemed to suggest that he shook psychiatry to it's very core.

Still fascinating, tracing that flow of ideas from Nash through Buchanan to Thatcher, with Laing, McNamara, Hayek and others getting in there. And even 'Yes Minister'.
 
firky said:
But those people who are qualified to treat it have a great onus on their shoulders. To protect the lives of the client and to some extent society, the risk of letting someone whom may be a danger to themselves and or others is too great. It is a 'safer' risk to bang them up. If they are a danger then they're not going to do much in care, and if they're not a danger, well they're not going to do anything anyway. You get to keep the diamond you stole.
whaaaa!? glad you don't work in mental health dude.
diagnosing someone who doesn't actually have, for example, schizophrenia, with schizophrenia, is a big concern imo. if the study is to be taken at face value - and i first learnt about it on my degree, so let's say for the sake of argument it can be - then it was exactly what mental health needed to tighten up the diagnostic system & stop "sane" people being misdiagnosed, locked away & stuffed full of drugs & methods that turned them into vegetables.
 
I found it quite convincing,even the central conceit that game thoery is now central to how our lives/the state, etc are ordered and I always come away from his programme's with a slightly changed perspective on things. This was particulalry so with the COTS and the power and influence of Edward Bernays. What i found interesting amongst many other things is how he identified how many of the radicals of the 60's with their demands to 'destroy the instititutions' actually helped the neo-liberal/privateer cause. in fact, people like Jerry Rubin, the Yippee, went on to be a wall st banker. In terms of where he is coming from politically, I think Curtis is a convinced democratic socialist who would see Atlees 1945 Govt as the best we ever had. Anyway it is great television, almost unique on british tv and one wonders how he gets it made on the BBC, especially post Hutton. I also found intriguing how John Nash was central to this paradigm shift in ordering society and was not the benign man portrayed in the film.

btw, merge the threads? this will run and run...
 
tastebud said:
whaaaa!? glad you don't work in mental health dude.
diagnosing someone who doesn't actually have, for example, schizophrenia, with schizophrenia, is a big concern imo. if the study is to be taken at face value - and i first learnt about it on my degree, so let's say for the sake of argument it can be - then it was exactly what mental health needed to tighten up the diagnostic system & stop "sane" people being misdiagnosed, locked away & stuffed full of drugs & methods that turned them into vegetables.

Well first of all you don't expect someone to lie to you do you? Secondly their arses would be on the line if one real 'nutter' for want of a better word slipped through the net. I don't agree with it but that is how the system works.
 
gnoriac said:
Was Laing really that influential? I'd always thought he only really hit it off amongst a few hippy types, whereas the programme seemed to suggest that he shook psychiatry to it's very core.

Haven't you heard of the Laing Society? I think it is still going pretty strong in the US and UK.
 
Here we see Laing off his tits on MDMA :D

http://www.laingsociety.org/biblio/ecstasy.htm

by Peter Nasmyth

The interview from which this article sprang, took place in 1986. I'd visited Dr. Laing at his north London home while researching an article on MDMA for 'The Face' magazine ('Ecstasy' published October 1986). However, the man and the interview seemed to merit story in themselves, so I wrote this additional Ecstasy piece, uncommissioned, along with the original. Unfortunately, at that time, nobody was interested in Laing. Editors in 1986 tended to regard him as something of a lapsed 60's guru; unfairly in my opinion. The article here is the same, save for a few minor updates.

Perhaps it also serves as a small tribute to the man who threw such highly charged dust into the conventional face of psychiatry. A man arguably too inspirational for the time of his profession. I remember walking away from his home carrying that same impression; as if encountering a child-like form of genius struggling inside a stiff parental pen. His shuffling impatiently as he spoke, standing up suddenly, picking something off the mantlepiece, pacing around then sitting down again. Unsettled under the brunt of his own passionate beliefs. Perhaps he was placed into a profession too unsure of itself to accommodate such unruly behaviour... His early death robs us of ever really knowing.

"There's very little you can expect me to say about this subject without becoming party or privy to criminal offences ..."

The canny Scots eyes looked up over their glasses. Even to a radical in the field of psychiatry like Dr. Ronald Laing, some questions exceed the limits of invasion. Or can be made to appear so.

Because, of course, he knew he'd be committing no offences. The topic of indiscretion - the psychotropic drug MDMA or 'Ecstasy' - was fully legal when he'd tried it in California, 1984, (criminalised only in July 1985) and had gained no official therapeutic uses in Britain or Europe before or since.

However, mystifying reports of a new 'safe psychedelic,' or 'a love drug' circulating within blue collar professions demanded some experienced clarification. His remark was either a blanket attempt to fend off any further journalistic attacks on his reputation, or simply to re-emphasise the seriousness with which he regarded a scientific chemical now so tainted by wine-bar folklaw.

Either way such cageyness is an unfortunately frequent occurrence in many of those entrusted to distribute the public pharmacopoeia. Under the present social climate of drug hysteria, uncritical statements on substances listed under 'Class A' in the Misuse of Drugs Act are not encouraged.

But, whether the resulting barrage of bad publicity, as in the case of heroin, or silence, as in the case of Ecstasy (until 1988 in Britain), are effective as deterrents remains questionable. For those with a curiosity, one sided reportage provokes distrust- and distrust is a pernicious spur toward experimentation. Might Dr. Laing, whose voice still wears some credibility on both sides of the law, add a few cautious words of insight?

He shuffled in his seat - a man never quite reconciled to any social confinement - then suddenly his face relaxed, as if realising there's no point in withholding what you believe to be true. He took off his glasses and leaned forward. Yes, he would address the question.

"The first point to be made on this subject is, there's a lot of global research going on to
come up with more and more useful, precise, and harmless chemicals.

The same tradition that 30 years ago produced Drinamyl (Purple Hearts)... then later Mandrax, both widely prescribed on the British National Health Service because they seemed to reduce agitation and listlessness among housewives, only to be withdrawn because of their side-effects or addictive qualities. Now we have the so called 'tranquillisers' like Largactil; the 'anti-psychoactive' drugs, Depixol, Stellazine, Haloperidol; 'anti-depressants' like Imipramine. I say 'so called' because the headings don't really refer to their effects. What scientists have always been looking for, as Arthur Koestler suggested, is a drug which is not a tranquilliser, an upper or downer but a stabiliser, just a help to keep one's balance throughout the day. The Californian scientist who synthesized MDMA in the 70s, Dr. Alexander Shulgin, thought he had found such a drug. All I can say is that within the context that I knew of its use, amongst very careful and responsible professionals and therapists in America ... all direct reports, including my own experience, were positive."

Laing had taken MDMA, or 'Adam' as he calls it, at Esalen, California's new-age headquarters, just as it hit its peak as an intriguing new mediator in couple counselling. In these settings it showed marked abilities in unlocking adult defensiveness and offering a temporary truce to warring spouses. But it also offered some less temporary dollar signs to those with an eye for market forces.

In the month before its U.S. ban, an estimated 30,000 doses were manufactured and sold in the Dallas region alone. It could be bought in bars, charged to any credit card, and came with a discount coupon for the next purchase. With such a rude finger held in its face, the Federal Drug Administratior responded with its heaviest ban, Schedule One. Their reasoning, not that people were having too much fun, but that Adam could just as easily swing the door away from Eden as toward it.

Subsequent reports from both the self-prescribed and American therapists vary from emotional breakthroughs to breakdowns, to heightened tactile awareness - hence the 'love drug' tag (questionable since it inhibits male orgasm), to disappointment even boredom. A subtle drug and, like all psychedelics, contingent on the mood of the recipient. And here Laing had his own Ecstasy tales.
" ... then I started to hear less favourable stories, like the California police computer picking up this drug in the blood of overdoses and suicide cases about people staging 'love-ins' in Holiday Inns; that the margin between a dangerous overdose - to life that is - and recommended amounts, is considerably less than with alcohol, barbiturates, or aspirin. The trouble is, neither myself nor anyone can make a general statement about its dangers because there are almost no statistics published."

Unfortunately for the psychiatrist hoping for new, prescribable drugs, it's the 'overdose' effect sought by the buying public that has ruined its chances The American central government had to act, but to many they chose over-kill.

Now its Schedule One classification declares it of 'no medical use' and severely restricts research authorisations. Ironically, self-prescription had ruined the supervised application.
"It's my opinion that government agencies, instead of slapping a total bar on this drug should explore it like they do others. It's a subtle chemical. The effects of 50 mgms on me would be nothing at all, or rather I might just feel allright. Rather smooth and open hearted not soggy, sentimental or stupid. Now, it could be used in that way as, say, a pi limited to 10 mgms and not anything that is called a 'trip' (100/200 mgms) - which from that perspective, is already an overdose - and if it passes the exacting filter as a prescribable drug, there's definitely a place for it. It's a pity to see being cut out like that."

But the only exacting tests at the moment are in the Acid House parties and Professional 'New Age' living room undertaken by those able to pick up the pill's œ8 to œ25 premium. And while such experimentation spreads influence only to unofficial bodies, conversation with existential psychiatrist inevitably turns the question of human curiosity itself. Research within its own secret laboratory beyond the reach of legislation. Why the need for so many love potions? How deluded can one be in the throes of pleasure, or even "Ecstasy"? Dr. Laing nods, looking as if this should have been asked for sooner.

"Well ... most of us live within a sort of crypto-delusional structure as to our needs; we haven't quite got it right about love and loving and what other people feel about us ... which is part of the popularity of this drug. It changes your feeling. But this can also be a danger. It's said as a joke, if you take Adam with your girlfriend, you shouldn't get married for six weeks. Under its influence you'd be unwise to make any decisions there and then about future emotional ways of living. Just as it would be foolish for any of us to make such decisions over, say," he thought for a second then a slightly guilty Glaswegian smile, " ... a bottle of whiskey."





Peter Nasmyth is a freelance journalist who has written extensively on MDMA use.
 
firky said:
Well first of all you don't expect someone to lie to you do you? Secondly their arses would be on the line if one real 'nutter' for want of a better word slipped through the net. I don't agree with it but that is how the system works.

plenty of "nutters" did slip through the net though, the experiment exposed the flaws in the mental health assessment of that time
 
Some did yes, but out of the hundreds of thousands that go through our over stretched health care only a very small % did. Do we ever hear about the success? of course not.
 
qualified

firky said:
But those people who are qualified to treat it have a great onus on their shoulders.
Firky, I think marty21's point was bigger than you realise - I think his point was that *arguably* people who were qualified had worthless qualifications. I do take your point that doctor's rely on people to tell the truth but i remind you that the voice in their head with one word was the only thing they did which was abnormal.
 
firky said:
Some did yes, but out of the hundreds of thousands that go through our over stretched health care only a very small % did. Do we ever hear about the success? of course not.
Yeah but Firky, the point (in my mind) is that clearly methods weren't rigorous enough at the time. To put it bluntly, the whole system was totally f*cked up, back then. Nowadays, whilst misdiagnosis does still happen - comorbidity of a lot of disorders probably being the main reason - it's a hell of a lot more rigorous procedure & you don't just immediately get labelled as *schizophrenic*, when presenting your symptoms to your GP, health professional, etc.
The way things were portrayed in the Adam Curtis doc., mental health professionals barely knew what they were doing/what they were looking for.
 
Even better than last week, nailed new labour as well:, I think Curtis's ideas/analysis are going to become very influential in the future. In fact I think Cameron has been watching it! in his speech today he claimed that N/labour has ripped the heart out of the NHS and replaced it with a computer, very Curtisian
 
And Yo La tengo in the soundtwack.

One day all telly will be this good.

fecking bwoken keyboad . . .
 
More good stuff, but a lot of points repeated. I reckon he could probably have made one longish programme better than a 3-parter.

One thought that stuck me tonight was that these ideas came about in the 60s but were implemented in the 80s-90s, ideas that I would categorise as fundy reductionism, yet in the late 80s a whole new intellectual paradigm came about in the sciences - "chaos". Actually a bad name IMHO for complex, emergent systems. But these to my mind more acurately describe how social interactions on a big scale work far more accurately. Perhaps it takes a couples of decades for thought to gestate?
 
gnoriac said:
Perhaps it takes a couples of decades for thought to gestate?

Maybe it takes a couple of decades for those who are in late education reading the cutting-edge ideas to get into positions of power and influence.
 
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