Action in Dalston Friday NOV10
- Thread starter haggy
- Start date
OK, that didn't take long - got back before anyone else looks like.
what is w/c culture?
Well, i'm not gonna fall into the proletcult trap, cos i guess i can really only speak for myself and my mates and mebbe generalise a bit. w/c culture isn't some homogenous concept that can easily be defined. i mean i don't go much on football personally - but it'd be good if the gillett sq space catered for big screen footy matches sometimes, and other sporting events, as well as the sort of activities that go down in local community centres for kids - dj events n all that (i'm too old to know what i'm talking about here, really!) Then there's stuff for older people: a bit cliched maybe, but film shows for the OAP generation, karoake, bingo, etc (maybe for the not-so-old). entertainment-wise, you get the picture...
socially, there's always useful space needed for advice surgeries of many kinds: drugs, homelessness, housing, benefits, health (support groups for various health issues).
'political' organisation space - with a small 'p'. this speaks for itself, really...
the fact is i doubt that what is planned for gillett sq will cater for any of this stuff. i really hope i'm wrong, and of course if the management are up for doing outreach to encourage local groups to utilise the space for this kind of activity then i'm sure there will be plenty of takers (and it needs to be affordable), but as it stands it will require some kind of convincing cos what is going on at the mo' really is alienating. this is not just the gut instinct of some hackney'd Hackney Independent activist (altho of course i am one!), but the knowledge gained from talking to working-class people in the area over the last 7-8 years. i know Dolly thinks that i just have a chip on my shoulder cos we lost an election (fuck - i can't tell you how relieved i was in some ways!), but it really ain't so. its much bigger than that.
the professional classes alweays bang on about mixed communities, but what we see is our communities fucked over to be replaced by new facilities exclusively for an alien culture. i quite like the fact there's the odd posh bar or restuarant on my doorstep if i've got a few quid in my pocket and want to treat myself, but not when all the stuff i like and can afford on a day to day basis is being decimated... is that so unreasonable?
what is w/c culture?
Well, i'm not gonna fall into the proletcult trap, cos i guess i can really only speak for myself and my mates and mebbe generalise a bit. w/c culture isn't some homogenous concept that can easily be defined. i mean i don't go much on football personally - but it'd be good if the gillett sq space catered for big screen footy matches sometimes, and other sporting events, as well as the sort of activities that go down in local community centres for kids - dj events n all that (i'm too old to know what i'm talking about here, really!) Then there's stuff for older people: a bit cliched maybe, but film shows for the OAP generation, karoake, bingo, etc (maybe for the not-so-old). entertainment-wise, you get the picture...
socially, there's always useful space needed for advice surgeries of many kinds: drugs, homelessness, housing, benefits, health (support groups for various health issues).
'political' organisation space - with a small 'p'. this speaks for itself, really...
the fact is i doubt that what is planned for gillett sq will cater for any of this stuff. i really hope i'm wrong, and of course if the management are up for doing outreach to encourage local groups to utilise the space for this kind of activity then i'm sure there will be plenty of takers (and it needs to be affordable), but as it stands it will require some kind of convincing cos what is going on at the mo' really is alienating. this is not just the gut instinct of some hackney'd Hackney Independent activist (altho of course i am one!), but the knowledge gained from talking to working-class people in the area over the last 7-8 years. i know Dolly thinks that i just have a chip on my shoulder cos we lost an election (fuck - i can't tell you how relieved i was in some ways!), but it really ain't so. its much bigger than that.
the professional classes alweays bang on about mixed communities, but what we see is our communities fucked over to be replaced by new facilities exclusively for an alien culture. i quite like the fact there's the odd posh bar or restuarant on my doorstep if i've got a few quid in my pocket and want to treat myself, but not when all the stuff i like and can afford on a day to day basis is being decimated... is that so unreasonable?
this is a post re the vortex from one my jazz-knowledgable friends on another site:
"Yep one of the main contributors to, and recently high profile victim of, Church St. gentrification. Not seen Gillet St. but someone I know who's played at both incarnations said the new one looks nice but sounds crap.
The "200 saxists" is part of the Serious London Jazz Festival - notorious for not including musicians from London and generally just stuff at the Barbican and other Central London venues. AFAIK Andy Sheppard's got zero links to the area at all (and is fucking boring)."
i can't speak for him - i don't really know much about jazz (being w/c
) but i trust his judgement...
"Yep one of the main contributors to, and recently high profile victim of, Church St. gentrification. Not seen Gillet St. but someone I know who's played at both incarnations said the new one looks nice but sounds crap.
The "200 saxists" is part of the Serious London Jazz Festival - notorious for not including musicians from London and generally just stuff at the Barbican and other Central London venues. AFAIK Andy Sheppard's got zero links to the area at all (and is fucking boring)."
i can't speak for him - i don't really know much about jazz (being w/c
) but i trust his judgement...
dolly's gal
killing things
haggy, thanks for clarifying your position and for making some interesting points.
firstly, i would like to apologise for calling dalston a stinking shit-hole. that came out a bit wrong!
what i meant is that as an area it could do with a lot of regeneration. i think there is no escaping from that fact. i know the issue of gentrification rears its head every time we use the word regeneration, but i'm not sure what the answer is. I mean, do we let an area crumble and fall to bits because if we regenerate it, it will make it a more desirable area to live in, thus leading to a rise in house prices? would "working class" people really prefer to live in an area with no amenities or anything to do, so that "middle class" people didn't come along and ruin it for them (i don’t say that lightly by the way)? i don't think so.
stop any person in dalston and ask them what they think about the gillet street development and i suspect the majority of them would either think it was a good thing or wouldn't give a fuck (and i am not going to patronise them by saying they don't understand the issues). that area is doing nothing at the moment. nothing. i'm not saying a load of bars and restaurants is what's needed, but as you yourself said haggy, plans for the square are much broader than this.
and in relation to the election thing, i think you'd do yourself some favours if you all stopped slagging jules pipe and ken livingstone off at every available opportunity. i don't think much to them either, but it comes across as your raison d'être, that and harping on about gentrification the whole time of course 
firstly, i would like to apologise for calling dalston a stinking shit-hole. that came out a bit wrong!
what i meant is that as an area it could do with a lot of regeneration. i think there is no escaping from that fact. i know the issue of gentrification rears its head every time we use the word regeneration, but i'm not sure what the answer is. I mean, do we let an area crumble and fall to bits because if we regenerate it, it will make it a more desirable area to live in, thus leading to a rise in house prices? would "working class" people really prefer to live in an area with no amenities or anything to do, so that "middle class" people didn't come along and ruin it for them (i don’t say that lightly by the way)? i don't think so.stop any person in dalston and ask them what they think about the gillet street development and i suspect the majority of them would either think it was a good thing or wouldn't give a fuck (and i am not going to patronise them by saying they don't understand the issues). that area is doing nothing at the moment. nothing. i'm not saying a load of bars and restaurants is what's needed, but as you yourself said haggy, plans for the square are much broader than this.
and in relation to the election thing, i think you'd do yourself some favours if you all stopped slagging jules pipe and ken livingstone off at every available opportunity. i don't think much to them either, but it comes across as your raison d'être, that and harping on about gentrification the whole time of course
I'm not sure the council aren't the wrong target anyway - it's rapacious property sharks and City of London bonuses that are killing Hackney, the council is pretty powerless - not that it gives a fuck in any case. I agree with most of Haggy's other points and causes celebres, but Gillet Sq has got to be to the good. Part of the point of it is to cut down on car parking spaces. And it has small booths for local traders.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
what cos you'll be able to book tablesdolly's gal said:
what?! but i thought they were going to be kept out by some kind of electric fence or something?? i certainly won't be supporting the innitiative now!
lighterthief
Well-Known Member
Well, here it is. I went along this afternoon to have a look myself. It is a vast improvement on what was there before IMO. The bit on the right is the Vortex Jazz Bar, on the left are HCD studios(?).
All kinds of things were going on...
...including some African dancing; this was part of one of their costumes:
Ken came along to officially open it. The square is part of the GLA's '100 Open Spaces' initiative - and the first to be finished apparently. All are scheduled for completion before 2012. There was a wee bit of heckling, which Ken acknowledged - but the crowd was definitely on his side. Perhaps people who actually live round here see the redevelopment as a good thing? There's a thought.
People were protesting. There was a lot of police around, but no sign of any trouble. One of these chaps certainly used to work at the 'posh' video shop, 'Film', on Broadway Market, maybe still does. Presumably he has managed to square the circle of both being against regeneration, yet still happy to take a wage from one of the new breed of shops which exist purely to service the 'gentrifying' newcomers.
Anyhoo, a big improvement. I'm not blind to the concerns that there is social engineering happening in Hackney, but for once I was happy to concentrate on something good happening for the community. Certainly Gillet Square would be a perfect place to listen to some music on a balmy evening. Thumbs up!
All kinds of things were going on...
...including some African dancing; this was part of one of their costumes:
Ken came along to officially open it. The square is part of the GLA's '100 Open Spaces' initiative - and the first to be finished apparently. All are scheduled for completion before 2012. There was a wee bit of heckling, which Ken acknowledged - but the crowd was definitely on his side. Perhaps people who actually live round here see the redevelopment as a good thing? There's a thought.
People were protesting. There was a lot of police around, but no sign of any trouble. One of these chaps certainly used to work at the 'posh' video shop, 'Film', on Broadway Market, maybe still does. Presumably he has managed to square the circle of both being against regeneration, yet still happy to take a wage from one of the new breed of shops which exist purely to service the 'gentrifying' newcomers.
Anyhoo, a big improvement. I'm not blind to the concerns that there is social engineering happening in Hackney, but for once I was happy to concentrate on something good happening for the community. Certainly Gillet Square would be a perfect place to listen to some music on a balmy evening. Thumbs up!
dolly's gal
killing things
yeh lightertheif, i didn't make it but i passed by on my way home and i saw loads of kids with balloons and they all had their face painted and ting 
it made me happy to be dalston, the kids looked well chuffed. i'm sure it was massive propaganda and all that big-stylee but who am i to argue with hundreds of kids loving it.
it made me happy to be dalston, the kids looked well chuffed. i'm sure it was massive propaganda and all that big-stylee but who am i to argue with hundreds of kids loving it.
Seems curious to accuse the Vortex of being both a villain and a victim of Church St. gentrification!haggy said:this is a post re the vortex from one my jazz-knowledgable friends on another site:
"Yep one of the main contributors to, and recently high profile victim of, Church St. gentrification. Not seen Gillet St. but someone I know who's played at both incarnations said the new one looks nice but sounds crap.
The "200 saxists" is part of the Serious London Jazz Festival - notorious for not including musicians from London and generally just stuff at the Barbican and other Central London venues. AFAIK Andy Sheppard's got zero links to the area at all (and is fucking boring)."
i can't speak for him - i don't really know much about jazz (being w/c
With concessions of no more than £2 for students/unemployed and low prices generally for some top stuff I don't think anyone can say that the Vortex has it in for those on low incomes.
Dalston really needs some decent stuff. I live equidistant from Dalston proper and Church St. I'm nearly always heading up north. At present there's very little in Dalston that I'd want to spend money out on. Yes you have choice galore of Turkish restaurants... but aside from that!
Monkeynuts
Hello sailor
There is some right toss on this thread.
I'm sure the people of Dalston are made up that various Citizens Smith and their Dalston Popular Fronts are so concerned about their well-being.
There is something really uncomfortable about the "Low Income Life" banner, as if "Low Income" is in itself is some sort of badge of pride. It's most certainly not something to be ashamed of but there almost seems to be some dodgy extreme left sentiment floating around here of keeping people down rather than looking at how people's environments can be improved.
I'm sure the people of Dalston are made up that various Citizens Smith and their Dalston Popular Fronts are so concerned about their well-being.
There is something really uncomfortable about the "Low Income Life" banner, as if "Low Income" is in itself is some sort of badge of pride. It's most certainly not something to be ashamed of but there almost seems to be some dodgy extreme left sentiment floating around here of keeping people down rather than looking at how people's environments can be improved.
Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
Monkeynuts said:
The statement is clear - health, jobs, education and housing first.
The fact is that Hackney council offers one of the worst, if not the worst, service in the whole of the country.
If this is a regeneration scheme to tackle these problems then it shows just how bankrupt Hackney's Labour party really is- as the banner reads, You Can't Eat Culture
As for the reference to "low-income life", I think you need to get your head into a different view point
Monkeynuts
Hello sailor
Divisive Cotton said:
You are right on the last point - it just sounds wrong. Whilst "Making Poverty History" as a slogan also grips my shit, it is more on the right track than "Preserving Low Income Life".
"Health, jobs, education and housing" is right - we can debate the order - but a decent living environment underpins all of these. Whilst they need sorting out that doesn't necessarily mean regeneration schemes are wrong. You can't eat culture but you can't work in an empty shop either.
lighterthief
Well-Known Member
You have a point about Dalston Lane, but I think it's a mistake to conflate the issue with Gillett Square. Gillett Square removed precisely nothing from Hackney except a piss-stained carpark and is now a much friendlier, sociable space.haggy said:not if the shop happens be in dalston lane and the council have sold it to an offshore property developer
This is very different to what has happened/is happening on Dalston Lane, Broadway Market, Dalston Theatre etc - which I personally am very unhappy about.
ETA Dalston Lane today:
Monkeynuts
Hello sailor
What's the story on that then? Sold to someone expecting to redevelop on back of East London Line project?
Looks bad
Looks bad
lighterthief
Well-Known Member
As I understand it, Hackney Council sold them off a few years ago under somewhat dubious circumstances to an offshore property development company. Although the properties are in a conservation area they have, as you can see, be left to rot. A cynic might say that they are deliberately being left like that so that when they become too expensive to repair they can be demolished, and nice 5 storey blocks of flats put there instead.
I think there was also something about the people leasing the shops not being allowed to bid for their own premises - very much like Spirit on Broadway Market (same development company too).
I'm sure haggy or someone else might have more info about it. Either way it isn't an edifying story. Hackney were forced to sell some/most of their portfolio of commercial property because they were in such a financial black hole, but they should/could have handled the sales much better.
And yes, the East London Line can only make this particular part of London that much more profitable for a property developer.
This is the kind of scandal people should rightly be critical of.
I think there was also something about the people leasing the shops not being allowed to bid for their own premises - very much like Spirit on Broadway Market (same development company too).
I'm sure haggy or someone else might have more info about it. Either way it isn't an edifying story. Hackney were forced to sell some/most of their portfolio of commercial property because they were in such a financial black hole, but they should/could have handled the sales much better.
And yes, the East London Line can only make this particular part of London that much more profitable for a property developer.
This is the kind of scandal people should rightly be critical of.
lighterthief
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that. This seems to be a reasonable summary:haggy said:
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