Abu Ghraib Photos

[phildwyer]

I would suggest another reason for this is that there really is fuck all in the mainstream US papers about things going on in the world outside their own border. Pretty much the same for the UK too. Whereas, certainly here in thailand (and i know the same goes for kenya too), plenty of worldwide news gets into their mainstream media.

Absolutely. It's incredible to me that The Independent is considered a serious newspaper in the UK. A middle-class African would regard it as a comic.

When I was in Accra, and told people I was American, they would begin addressing me with a gentle condescension, as if speaking with a child: "George Bush--you think very good?"

 

[phildwyer]

"We're Number 1, everybody else on Earth wants a Green Card and considers our naked plotocracy as some sort of beacon of 'democracy'. Vietnam's sad because they were kept from being liberated by us in a war where precisely 58,000 people died ("the rest" are un-people), South America is grateful to us for defending them from Stalinism, the ME hates our Freedoms, and Down with the Social Instinct, it's Every capitalist man for himself because this is the essence of civilisation, the governments only task is to raise mighty armies to Defend Our Interests overseas and give our tax money to Big Industry in mad crazy Corporate Welfare schemes


w00t! We're Number 1".

I once asked an American youth why he and his contemporaries rarely thought to travel outside the USA. He reasoned that, since people from the rest of the world were all trying to get into the USA, the rest of the world must "suck."

To be fair, the whole history of the USA consists of people arriving in flight from places that really do suck.

 

[Yossarian]

I would suggest another reason for this is that there really is fuck all in the mainstream US papers about things going on in the world outside their own border. Pretty much the same for the UK too. Whereas, certainly here in thailand (and i know the same goes for kenya too), plenty of worldwide news gets into their mainstream media.

There certainly isn't less world news in the likes of the New York Times, the Detroit Free Press, the Times, Telegraph etc than there is in the Nation or the Bangkok Post - do the Thai-language papers have gargantuan international news sections?

 

[phildwyer]

There certainly isn't less world news in the likes of the New York Times, the Detroit Free Press, the Times, Telegraph etc than there is in the Nation or the Bangkok Post - do the Thai-language papers have gargantuan international news sections?

Ever tried finding the New York Times in Allentown, PA?

 

[Yossarian]

Ever tried finding the New York Times in Allentown, PA?

Do they carry the Philadelphia papers?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I find it hard to believe it would be difficult to find the NYT in Allentown.

 

[phildwyer]

I find it hard to believe it would be difficult to find the NYT in Allentown.

It's not difficult, it's impossible. In my experience. And the same goes for any mid-sized city in the USA, let alone the countryside.

Yes Yossarian, you could find the Philadelphia Inquirer, but that's hardly great for world news. The NYT and the LA Times are basically the only games in town, and they're not national papers. There are no national papers in the USA.

 

[Yossarian]

There are no national papers in the USA.

Apart from USA Today, which definitely has international coverage. The 'world' section is a little on the skimpy side but I doubt it's that different from any mass-market Thai paper.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

It's not difficult, it's impossible. In my experience. And the same goes for any mid-sized city in the USA, let alone the countryside.

This does not correspond to my experience. I've seen the NYT in gas stations, Starbuckses, in dispensers etc in the most unlikely places, certainly in ones a lot smaller than Allentown.

Not that its availability makes a lot of difference, mind you, given that (a) it's not really all that great for international news and (b) most people get their news from the TV and radio, where international news is patchy at best and often just naked propaganda. At least it was when I was there. I can't see it having changed a lot.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Apart from USA Today, which definitely has international coverage. The 'world' section is a little on the skimpy side but I doubt it's that different from any mass-market Thai paper.

USA Today isn't really a paper. You'd definitely get more international news from the Inquirer (which is not too bad IMO).

 

[phildwyer]

This does not correspond to my experience. I've seen the NYT in gas stations, Starbuckses, in dispensers etc in the most unlikely places, certainly in ones a lot smaller than Allentown.

OK I'll give you the gas stations. But not the dispensers, they offer pure USA Today, which as you say is garbage.

Not that its availability makes a lot of difference, mind you, given that (a) it's not really all that great for international news and (b) most people get their news from the TV and radio, where international news is patchy at best and often just naked propaganda. At least it was when I was there. I can't see it having changed a lot.

Voila.

 

[bendeus]

Oh, they're hardly hidden. Bagdat Cadessi on a Saturday night is Maganda City. And you're right that they think much as their equivalents in the West. They don't dominate society here though, and their world-view is one among many.

The majority of people in Turkey, and in the third world as a whole, have a well thought-out political position, based on a good working knowledge of geo-politics. I'd say that extends to the slums these days too. Places like Jamaica, Haiti and Ghana are very poor, but also highly politicized. Even the poorest have access to TV, radio, the internet, and their situation forces them to evaluate things critically.

In fact, I'd say that knowledge of the world and its ways is increasing in the third world at much the same rate as it is decreasing in the West.

I remain unconvinced. Having lived in the 'Third World' for about a quarter of my adult life I can't say that I ever came across a great deal of understanding of global politics amongst the people I worked and lived with. Save for the (largely rural) demobilised fighters of the EPLA, who had good reason to be politicised, and educated metropolitans in Istanbul, La Paz, Ulaan Baatar and Quito, I didn't come across a great deal of political awareness in the rural or periurban areas in which I worked. People seemed far to preoccupied with surviving, TBH.

 

[phildwyer]

I remain unconvinced. Having lived in the 'Third World' for about a quarter of my adult life I can't say that I ever came across a great deal of understanding of global politics amongst the people I worked and lived with. Save for the (largely rural) demobilised fighters of the EPLA, who had good reason to be politicised, and educated metropolitans in Istanbul, La Paz, Ulaan Baatar and Quito, I didn't come across a great deal of political awareness in the rural or periurban areas in which I worked. People seemed far to preoccupied with surviving, TBH.

And it is precisely their preoccupation with survival that politicizes them. The inhabitants of Tivoli Gardens in Kingston or Cite Soliel in Port-au-Prince or Sodom and Gomorrah in Accra are forced to adopt a political allegiance--as in forced, at gunpoint.

You may be right about rural areas; as I say, I wouldn't know. But whenever poor people are concentrated in large numbers, provided they are mostly literate, you will always find high levels of political awareness. It was the same in the metropoli of nineteenth-century Europe.

And that forms a marked contrast with the apolitical ignorance, the obsession with "entertainment" and celebrity, that characterizes the inhabitants of the postmodern West. I believe that this ignorance will be their downfall. Gorau arf, arf dysg.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I'm not sure whether it was explicitly stated (that would defeat the point of concealing the pictures a bit) but it was certainly very strongly implied. I'm sure I've seen stuff about translators raping prisoners or their children.

Were the kids locked up alongside their fathers?

I hadn't heard about this.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

In fact I now find that only in the "third world" does the average person in the street have any significant knowledge of what is going on in the world. The average Mexican knows far more than the average American, the average Turk knows far more than the average European etc.

Strange. Or not?

I think it's strange. I was impressed by the level of world coverage in newspapers in UK, France and Italy. To me, it appeared that they were better in this respect than the average US paper. IHT was an exception, but it isn't really a US paper, it's a collaboration.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I would dispute that. In the Third World low levels of literacy, education and access to primary media sources mitigate against widespread knowledge of global current affairs. Your statement may be true of relatively educated, urbanised populations, but is less so when taking rural populations or inhabitants of periurban gece condos or barrio pobres. Surely this demographic represents a majority in the third world?

Apparently, the adult literacy rate in Mexico is around 90%.

One thing that disappoints me about this whole thing, is that Obama isn't releasing these photos.

Can this mean that he is not in fact perfect?

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

And it is precisely their preoccupation with survival that politicizes them. The inhabitants of Tivoli Gardens in Kingston or Cite Soliel in Port-au-Prince or Sodom and Gomorrah in Accra are forced to adopt a political allegiance--as in forced, at gunpoint.

You may be right about rural areas; as I say, I wouldn't know. But whenever poor people are concentrated in large numbers, provided they are mostly literate, you will always find high levels of political awareness. It was the same in the metropoli of nineteenth-century Europe.

And that forms a marked contrast with the apolitical ignorance, the obsession with "entertainment" and celebrity, that characterizes the inhabitants of the postmodern West. I believe that this ignorance will be their downfall. Gorau arf, arf dysg.

I found people very apolitical in China. There's a culture there of 'Uncle knows best', whoever their rulers are, they blindly accept it. It doesn't matter whether it's really poor or really rich chinese, they still just say "Yeah our government's great".

 

[phildwyer]

Were the kids locked up alongside their fathers?

Yep. For the express purpose of torturing them so that their fathers (or even mothers) would talk.

The Israelis have allegedly been using this technique for many years, and presumably taught it to the USA (actually Israeli "interrogators" are allegedly working in Iraq anyway).

According to Michael Burleigh's Blood and Rage, two sons of Abu Hamza (iirc) were kidnapped and photographed being sodomized. The photos were then used to blackmail them into planting bombs in the houses of Al-Quaeda leaders.

Standard operating procedure it would seem.

 

[fela fan]

There certainly isn't less world news in the likes of the New York Times, the Detroit Free Press, the Times, Telegraph etc than there is in the Nation or the Bangkok Post - do the Thai-language papers have gargantuan international news sections?

You can't resist it can you mate!

Allow me to update you somewhat: the nation has been trampled, obliterated. It is a dreadful paper now. Well, i bought it the other day and that one edition was this way, but i've heard for a while now that it had turned bad.

As for the bkk post, much better for world news and opinion (especially on sundays) and discussion than anything in britain is. And britain is better than the US in my experience. Don't forget bush's extreme lack of knowledge of countries other than the US, and he represents loads of americans.

Any world news in the telegraph or times is largely about the US, sometimes europe. Other countries only get a mention when there's been a disaster. And anyone who thought africa was like they paint it in the UK papers would be rather uninformed.

Face it mate, the bkk post beats english and american papers hands down when it comes to informing its readers about the world. As the nation used to.

 

[fela fan]

Apparently, the adult literacy rate in Mexico is around 90%.

One thing that disappoints me about this whole thing, is that Obama isn't releasing these photos.

Can this mean that he is not in fact perfect?

It actually doesn't really matter to what degree obama is perfect. He doesn't call the tunes. This u-turn on guantanamo is a classic example of everything just carrying on much the same way in the US. Those who call the shots made him backtrack.

It's all about money these days innit. And when that's the case you can fucking forget about humanity and empathy. In fact it wouldn't be too dramatic to say that guantanamo sums up this 21st century perfectly. Perhaps it will become an icon of modern-day money politics as exemplified by that arch enemy of human freedom, expression, empathy: the US government.

 

[fela fan]

I think it's strange. I was impressed by the level of world coverage in newspapers in UK, France and Italy. To me, it appeared that they were better in this respect than the average US paper. IHT was an exception, but it isn't really a US paper, it's a collaboration.

They're all the same really, they exist to promote US power, whether for home consumption or international consumption. They are mouthpieces for the USG and US business. Funny that...

 

[Corax]

It actually doesn't really matter to what degree obama is perfect. He doesn't call the tunes. This u-turn on guantanamo is a classic example of everything just carrying on much the same way in the US. Those who call the shots made him backtrack.

It's all about money these days innit. And when that's the case you can fucking forget about humanity and empathy. In fact it wouldn't be too dramatic to say that guantanamo sums up this 21st century perfectly. Perhaps it will become an icon of modern-day money politics as exemplified by that arch enemy of human freedom, expression, empathy: the US government.

I think you're spot on with this. I'm still of the opinion that Obama's a principled man - but I think that despite being president, he still doesn't have as much power to change things as he expected. He's smart though, and I'm still optimistic that he'll play the long-game and still achieve real progress.*

The U-Turn over the photos is hardly suprising:

1) Obama releases photos
2) Americans somewhere in the world die at fundie muslim hands
3) Obama killed Americans

F*X would have a fuckin field day.

*ETA: I'm also quite prepared to find that he's a self-serving cunt intent on world domination.

 

[camouflage]

Apparently, the adult literacy rate in Mexico is around 90%.

One thing that disappoints me about this whole thing, is that Obama isn't releasing these photos.

Can this mean that he is not in fact perfect?

Heh, hadn't noticed... good to see you're back from your sulk.

 

[Yossarian]

As for the bkk post, much better for world news and opinion (especially on sundays) and discussion than anything in britain is. And britain is better than the US in my experience. Don't forget bush's extreme lack of knowledge of countries other than the US, and he represents loads of americans.

Any world news in the telegraph or times is largely about the US, sometimes europe. Other countries only get a mention when there's been a disaster. And anyone who thought africa was like they paint it in the UK papers would be rather uninformed.

Face it mate, the bkk post beats english and american papers hands down when it comes to informing its readers about the world. As the nation used to.

Nonsense, the Bangkok Post's international news - apart from its admirable coverage of Burma - is mostly cobbled together from wire services and other newspapers.

Pick up tomorrow's Bangkok Post, look at the international stories, and see how many have (Reuters) or (Associated Press) or (New York Times) or (Guardian) next to them in light grey type. Do you think the Bangkok Post has its own reporters stationed around the world?

The Bangkok Post doesn't even count as an example of mass media in Thailand anyway - it's a foreign-language newspaper with a circulation of 75,000 in a country with a population of 60 million.

How many pages does Thai Rath devote to international news?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Yep. For the express purpose of torturing them so that their fathers (or even mothers) would talk.

The Israelis have allegedly been using this technique for many years, and presumably taught it to the USA (actually Israeli "interrogators" are allegedly working in Iraq anyway).

According to Michael Burleigh's Blood and Rage, two sons of Abu Hamza (iirc) were kidnapped and photographed being sodomized. The photos were then used to blackmail them into planting bombs in the houses of Al-Quaeda leaders.

Standard operating procedure it would seem.

It was also used by the CIA and CIA-trained in Central and South America. (One extra aspect I heard of from that: if you can't grab somebody's family, you lock them in a room play tapes of _other_ tortured kids screaming, and tell them it's their kids. I suppose you have to make sure the kids you torture don't actually say anything in case their voices sound wrong.)

I'm sure, to be honest, that it has been used for millennia, it's one of those fairly basic things like pain and sleep deprivation and cultural humiliation.

 

[camouflage]

Didn't they formalize these 'techniques' at the School of the Americas as far back as the fifties?

Use of relatives in coercion, use of terror, electric shock methods, use of distrust, use of bottles when interogating women and sexual violence generaly against women and men (and kids of course, subsetting with the use of relatives mentioned earlier), electric shock methods, simulated drowning, etc.

"A few bad apples" my last crap.

 

[Diamond]

One cannot help but wonder how History Will Judge the fact that, on this supposedly Leftist political message-board, two threads about Susan Boyle are each fifteen times as long as this one.

I'm sure this is going to be misunderstood but what the hell...

Maybe that reflects the fact that there isn't too much controversy in the issue itself to argue about.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yep. For the express purpose of torturing them so that their fathers (or even mothers) would talk.

The Israelis have allegedly been using this technique for many years, and presumably taught it to the USA (actually Israeli "interrogators" are allegedly working in Iraq anyway).

According to Michael Burleigh's Blood and Rage, two sons of Abu Hamza (iirc) were kidnapped and photographed being sodomized. The photos were then used to blackmail them into planting bombs in the houses of Al-Quaeda leaders.

Standard operating procedure it would seem.

It's enough to make you want to vomit.

 

[phildwyer]

It's enough to make you want to vomit.

It's not so much the torturers themselves I blame. They must have been badly brutalized themselves. I blame people like Alan Dershowitz, who write books justifying torture from the safety of their Riverside Drive lofts.

 

[phildwyer]

I'm sure this is going to be misunderstood but what the hell...

Maybe that reflects the fact that there isn't too much controversy in the issue itself to argue about.

In the issue of torture being used in our name, you mean? Sounds pretty controversial to me.

No, I remain convinced that it is down to the depoliticization of the Western populace. And I also remain convinced that this stands in marked contrast to the Third World.

Consider for example the popular music of Third World societies: reggae, rai, calypso, high-life etc. What are the lyrics about? Politics, mostly, or politicized sexuality. What are the lyrics of Western popular music about? The most degraded forms of love and sex imaginable.