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A4E: Fraud Teams called in.

Anybody suprised?

Depends how you look at it. I'm not surprised that A4E are apparently crooked, the very nature of the 'service' they provide is a fucking con IMO, but I am surprised that they're being taken to task for their crookedness. As far as it's possible to tell parasites like A4E represent everything that's good about the world in the eyes of the labour party; a channel for public money to go straight to the private sector without passing Go, a means to provide unscrupulous employers with cheap workers devoid of basic rights, a device for making it look like poverty is being tackled in a meaningful way when it's actually just being exploited more effectively, a 'tough on dolescum' measure to make the Daily Mail's readership spunk in their drawers...
 
Good post, all issues that an effective and domestically focussed Left could have zeroed in on and made interventions, but....
 
Still stalking Glen, and no i don't include the 'reformist' (far left sneer) LRC who do very good work...

why not comment on the issue instead?
 
This is the first time that any government has guaranteed that jobs and training will be available to young people and, crucially, has made it mandatory for young people that, if there is a job available, to take this work up and have their benefits cut if they do not."


says something when that can be seen as a boast, a positive:mad:
 
We'll have to see how it's implemented (and I'm not optinistic), but I am very much IN FAVOUR of people having a real entitlement to work or training and I am NOT in favour of long-term unemployment.



However, the right to work (as it would be) should not only be for those under 25 and an unemployed person should not have to wait 12 months to become eligible.




It could be something like this:
  • Nat Min Wage increased to, say, £8.00
  • State becomes the employer of last resort
  • Many socially useful tasks, esp. improving the environment and/or helping people in need, identified
  • After, say, four months of unemployment, a person becomes entitled to socially useful state employment
  • After, say, eight months of unemployment, a person loses the option of continuing to claim Job Seekers' Pittance: Take the job to which you are entitled or have no income
 
We'll have to see how it's implemented (and I'm not optinistic), but I am very much IN FAVOUR of people having a real entitlement to work or training and I am NOT in favour of long-term unemployment.



However, the right to work (as it would be) should not only be for those under 25 and an unemployed person should not have to wait 12 months to become eligible.




It could be something like this:
  • Nat Min Wage increased to, say, £8.00
  • State becomes the employer of last resort
  • Many socially useful tasks, esp. improving the environment and/or helping people in need, identified
  • After, say, four months of unemployment, a person becomes entitled to socially useful state employment
  • After, say, eight months of unemployment, a person loses the option of continuing to claim Job Seekers' Pittance: Take the job to which you are entitled or have no income


That sounds fair enough for the people able to do that kind of work, but I'm mindful that now JSA is going to be full of people with health problems who have been thrown off IB and single parents without childcare. It's them that are vulnerable to stuff I guess.
 
seriously.. we get a load of students told they can't do our course and we have to get the advisors to ring us to talk to them about which bloody contract they are under
 
Channel 4 News tonight will have a piece on it.

Some coverage of A4E and another company in Liverpool, but loads and loads - the larger part of the C4 News piece - was focused on Working Links.

Working Links, as far as I know from talking to people who have experience of the organisation as clients, has a good reputation. That is very different from A4E, whose name, as far as I can gather from various people, is shit.

Still, I suppose the fiddles under discussion are a different matter from how the organisations treat unemployed people.
 
Some coverage of A4E and another company in Liverpool, but loads and loads - the larger part of the C4 News piece - was focused on Working Links.

Working Links, as far as I know from talking to people who have experience of the organisation as clients, has a good reputation. That is very different from A4E, whose name, as far as I can gather from various people, is shit.

Still, I suppose the fiddles under discussion are a different matter from how the organisations treat unemployed people.

I deal with working links fairly regularly, the Ch4 report didn't look good at all.
 
I deal with working links fairly regularly, the Ch4 report didn't look good at all.

I'm not at all sure what point you are making with the second part of your post. Obviously, it didn't look good. Working Links, A4E & at least one other organisation were exposed as being on the fiddle, grabbing taxpayers' money by lying.

Have I misunderstood you?
 
I'm not at all sure what point you are making with the second part of your post. Obviously, it didn't look good. Working Links, A4E & at least one other organisation were exposed as being on the fiddle, grabbing taxpayers' money by lying.

Have I misunderstood you?

The point being that it didn't look good, I was being rather obvious.
 
They're effectively based on statistics - the hub of the fraud seems to be that the company got paid by the number of people put into work / training or whatever. The company is suspected of making up some of this number, thus improperly inflating their subseqent claim for payment.

These statistics are way beyond anything a financial auditor of the accounts would be able to uncover - if the company said they put 1,234 people into work in June the auditor would be able to confirm that 1,234 payments were claimed sure, but they would have no meaningful way of checking that initial 1,234 claim other than (at best) recounting the returns from various parts of the business ... checking that the people actually existed, or even that the paperwork existed (which I would expect to be easily forgeable anyway), would be beyond the scope of their audit.

Something similar is hanging around further education, where colleges get paid by numbers of students enrolled / passing various courses successfully.

As tbaldwin said:



You could add to that that trying to get reliable figures ---> massive bureaucracy which actually adds nothing at all to the service delivered and doesn't improve things much anyway ... (e.g. police crime statistics).

Performance related pay / payments to contractors are very attractive in theory but really hard to deliver properly in practice unless there is a clear, unambiguous, objective, simple measure of performance which has no unintended consequences in terms of skewing performance away from other important things.

Good post DB.
The thing is that there is an incentive for people to make up and/or bend facts and statistics..Its really not that difficult to do but difficult to detect.
And as you say it happens in lots of places including education.

At the moment if somebody uses a few different services like A4E etc to get a job and they find a job what is to stop all 3 claiming it as an outcome? Fact is they can probably all claim it, but its one Job.

What is to stop colleges claiming that students are still attending when theyve left?

Who really has time to check up on all this?

There is a huge culture of greed and dishonesty when it comes to public money in this country.
 
Brown is announcing that everyone below the age of 25 will either get a job or training, and if they fail to accept the job/training they will lose benefits (two weeks for the first job/training, four for the second, twenty-six for the third).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8123723.stm

More of the same then!

:rolleyes:

More brown spin that is already happening with the new deal if you refuse training ,with just the job bit being added
 
At the moment if somebody uses a few different services like A4E etc to get a job and they find a job what is to stop all 3 claiming it as an outcome? Fact is they can probably all claim it, but its one Job.

only if they are operating under different funding streams, all New Deal etc contracters and funded by the DWP and the audit process makes this near impossible, people have only got one NiNo and any multiple claim is automatically flagged up because of this

dont forget the system that funds job clubs and the like is run the exact same people who run job centres, the real directive being to make life as difficult as possible

the type of people who ran ES training courses prior to the mass opening up to reed, a4e etc were often community ventres, little charitable training projects etc - small working class institutions who viewed employment services as essentially the enemy and the feeling was mutual

the audit process was notoriously fierce, contracts would be pulled at the slightest glimmer of doubt or a couple of missing signatures and any chance of cooking the figures, aside from the few low level ways ive described were impossible - believe me we looked

the question is now whether that audit process has been softened now that big business is involved

it mean it must be significantly different auditing a4e and sending two auditors in a community hall on a council estate to meticulously study 30 papers files - and thats the conspiracy or lack of it, just an innate and naive new labour belief that big business is fundamentally decent, honest and more capable of running local services than local people
 
Do people regularly turn down jobs when they're on the dole?

Only those seeking to get kicked off of it.


Will these guaranteed jobs and training be paid??

I doubt it. How can there be guaranteed paid and secure jobs for the hundreds of thousands of young folk who are unemployed? If there were any such jobs out there then there wouldn't be hundreds of thousands out of work in the first place. I suspect this will be a case of more unpaid labour that will only end up costing more proper jobs as companies choose free labour over paid labour, and thus the cycle will continue until everyone in the UK is working for free.

As for training, if what's provided is anything like as shit as new deal training schemes currently on offer (ie. one-size-fits-all egg-sucking for beginners) then it's just another excuse to shovel cash into the greasy palms of A4E and friends. If claimants will actually get to choose what training they do, based on their existing skills and experience, then that's great but how exactly is Brown planning to conjure so many courses into existence overnight, never mind the money to pay for them? I could really use a master's degree to help me get a decent leg-up onto the career ladder, are the DWP gonna pay for that? Are they fuck, they'll be teaching me to lick stamps five days a week during the time I might better spend looking for a fucking job :rolleyes:
 
Surely the whole point of privatisation is to provide opportunities for corruption?

Making any profit at all from welfare could be seen as corrupt. In £1.5bn private welfare industry, their profits must be at least £600 million. That's £600 million creamed from taxpayers. With the DWP, there'd be no need for profit at all.

On the other hand, the ability of workfare programs to put individuals (back) into the labor force is much less impressive: According to estimates by the OECD, only 5-10% of the participants in various welfare programs are employed as a direct result of those programs; the others, it is estimated, would have found jobs even without the programs (OECD, OECD Employment Outlook 2000: 8).
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=9259455&highlight=workfare#post9259455

It would be better just to expand/improve the existing welfare state jobseeker service, make sure money/grants are available to communities who start up community childcare/daycare/youth club schemes and leave the idea workfare well alone and concentrate on building skills/training for life for each long-term welfare recipient - not from outsourced 'League of Gentlement' style job-clubs/training schemes, but in-house and sourced directly through the existing DWP to local colleges/universities whose qualifications actually mean something to employers. There's no point having yet another training quango creaming enormous profits from taxpayer funds when we already have the facilities in local colleges/universities.

We already have careers service, that too can be brought in to develop adult retraining and careers advice.

I haven't seen the costs for workfare implementation, nor have i seen the figures for that private company with links to the labour party which is basically going to be doing what the state already does.

The government (no matter who is in power) needs to be far more transparent with it's plans and accounts. We citizens are not stupid and the government is often pays outrageous quango/consultancy fees for things which could be sorted out much more simply and cheaply and importantly, without profit, since taxpayers don't want to see overpriced profit-making private-sector training when we already have the facilities in place to provide it.


Workfare does not work.
Workfare programs are not taking their participants out of poverty.
Workfare worsens job conditions for all low waged workers.
Workfare has been a disaster in Israel and USA.

Additionally, in the USA, there is unequivocal, irrefutable evidence that single-parent families forced into work has contributed to increase in dysfunctional families.

Governments tend to present workfare programs as a success story, primarily because they achieved their immediate goal -- reducing the budget for welfare payments. In the United States, for example, the number of recipients was cut in half within a few years (Besharov and Germanis, 2000).

On the other hand, the ability of workfare programs to put individuals (back) into the labor force is much less impressive: According to estimates by the OECD, only 5-10% of the participants in various welfare programs are employed as a direct result of those programs; the others, it is estimated, would have found jobs even without the programs (OECD, OECD Employment Outlook 2000: 8). In the United States, where the welfare rolls were halved within four years, no one can state definitively how much of this decline was due to workfare programs and how much to the booming economy.

Critics of workfare note that a significant portion of the success of the programs can be attributed to the economic growth in countries where they were implemented. Where growth was low and unemployment high, on the other hand, workfare participants have had a hard time finding stable employment.

But even in countries enjoying significant economic growth, most jobs open to welfare recipients do not allow them to "break out of the cycle of poverty." In the United States, where there is full employment, the jobs found by most former welfare recipients were for unskilled labor -- positions with no job security and paying only a minimum wage. This is primarily because most welfare recipients have little education and lack the skills needed for finding a better job.

Thus, despite the promise, workfare programs are not taking their participants out of poverty. A survey of programs carried out in Wisconsin between 1989 and 1997 reveals that while the number of welfare recipients decreased by two-thirds, the number of poor dropped by no more than about 12%.

What's more, the survey showed a rise in the number of persons mired in deep poverty (having incomes totaling less than 50% of the poverty line): the proportion of food stamp recipients rose from 10% in 1989 to 32% in 1997 (Moore and Selkowe, 1999).

Another shortcoming of the workfare program is that welfare recipients absorbed into the job market often take jobs away from unskilled workers who are already there. The entry of new workers into low skilled jobs pushes out those who previously held these jobs, or lowers the wage and worsens the job conditions for all (Solow, 1998).

More specific criticism relates to women heading single-parent families. The need to work outside the home can detrimentally affect children who remain behind without proper supervision or child care. At least one study found that single mothers who participated in workfare suffered from both severe economic distress and a high incidence of depression (Selkowe and Neale, 1999).
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=9259227&highlight=workfare#post9259227

It costs more to force single mums into work and pay for their childcare than it does to pay them their paltry benefits. No savings are made, but the figures are massaged and people are forced into low-paid work.

The resulting increase in dysfunctional children of single-parents forced into workfare is also another worrying factor, both socially and personally in the form of later depression, etc. It really does look awful no matter which way you look at it.

Add the governments failure upon failure to implement working maintenance payment scheme and you have a dysfunctional government actively working to increase dysfunctional citizens.
 
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