A worse-than-failed degree mark for cheaters?

[mrs quoad]

I don't agree

tbf, you couldn't really, DC

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Well you're hardly gonna show that certificate to an employer, are ya?

Tbh, this is what I first thought, but then cloo and Mrs Quoad had quite good answers for this.

However,

there's a moral difference though, isn't there, between someone who failed perhaps because they weren't academically able enough, or because they lost interest in that particular subject and couldn't be bothered, or someone who partied too hard, or someone who got really bad exam nerves and fluffed their exams and someone who deliberately set out to be dishonest and cheat. partying too hard isn't tantamount to dishonesty, nor is losing interest in the subject, nor is having distractions like family or relationship problems or illness. In that sense cheating is in a league of its own. Dishonesty says something much more negative about a person's character than laziness or being disorganised and distracted. Someone who cheats has a warped moral compass in a way that a party animal doesn't

The world isn't necessarily split into people who good moral people who would never cheat in any way, and horrible immoral people who would cheat whilst crawling over the bodies of their peers. Whilst cheating, as a behaviour, is always wrong, a person could be driven to it by utter desperation, perhaps from the fall out of one of the other things you mention. Would that necessarily make them a terrible human being, despite the behaviour being a terrible behaviour?

Also of course, some people do commit accidental plagiarism. Where would the line be drawn?

 

[Edie]

Is cheating always wrong?

 

[Roadkill]

Is cheating always wrong?

I don't think you can ever condone plagiarism. If it's accidental it's obviously excusable to an extent, but deliberately passing someone else's work off as your own is just plain dishonest.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Is cheating always wrong?

It's always the wrong thing to do, but I think some degree of sympathy might be possible to feel towards some cheaters compared to others.

 

[Sunray]

Cheating is only a problem for Universities who can't be bothered to check the work. Someone had to actually mark it, should have proper seminars.

I suggest that at Oxford and Cambridge cheating is hard because you would have to discuss your essay with a tutor who really really knows the subject and interest was piqued by your unusual attitude to Mao and his brutal methods. If you didn't write it, your fucked.

In 92 my Uni used the same exercises in the work book every year and a plagiarism detection software, which had all the answers stored in it from all the people that took them.

 

[Roadkill]

Cheating is only a problem for Universities who can't be bothered to check the work. Someone had to actually mark it, should have proper seminars.

I suggest that at Oxford and Cambridge cheating is hard because you would have to discuss your essay with a tutor who really really knows the subject and interest was piqued by your unusual attitude to Mao and his brutal methods. If you didn't write it, your fucked.

In 92 my Uni used the same exercises in the work book every year and a plagiarism detection software, which had all the answers stored in it from all the people that took them.

That's not quite fair IMO. I agree that more one-to-one essay tutorials with students are a good thing for all sorts of reasons, but with increasing student numbers and larger courses a lot of lecturers/departments/institutions just haven't the time to give everyone a one-to-one tutorial for every essay.

As for plagiarism detection software, I've heard a lot about it but never come across it and no department I've worked in has used it AFAIK. The main electronic tool lecturers use to check work is simply google: if they're suspicious about an essay (and that usually arises from either a poor student suddenly producing a brilliant essay, or weirdnesses in the writing - such as the idiot who submitted a downloaded American essay without bothering to Anglicise the spelling!) they google a few sentences and see what they get back. I've known a couple of people caught that way.

In any case, even the best software can't detect what it's not been told to. These days there's a thriving trade in undergrad dissertations: there's no coordination between universities at that level, so you're relatively unlikely to be detected buying a BA dissertation that's got good marks at one institution, rewording it a bit, and submitting it at another.

Besides, am I right in thinking your degree was computer science of some sort? It's a bit different with an arts or humanities subject...

 

[DotCommunist]

tbf, you couldn't really, DC

Mine admits it is art, yours pretends to science. Rowboy

 

[spring-peeper]

I don't support plagiarism in any shape or form. It was drilled into me as a child, but I was educated in at time when one copied in information onto a page/index card and then went home and transformed the information into x number of paragraphs.

I see my children do their assignments from school. They just copy and paste from a website and print. AND THEY PASS!!!

omg - we are raising a generation who thinks a quick copy-and-paste is research!!!

In my opinion, we need to start re-thinking how we are teaching our children. Once they get to post-secondary, they will think that plagiarism is acceptable. I know my kids do.

(I really hope that things are different over there.)

 

[ViolentPanda]

There's people who will argue that outside of pure maths and core science degrees they are all token

I don't agree

I've got a 20+ year-old science degree and a 21st-century social science degree, plus some diplomas in this and that, and frankly not only do I not agree (having a cross-disciplinary perspective, as it were), but I've also never come across one of these "token" degrees. All the undergrad syllabuses I've ever looked at included marked course-work, mandatory minimum contact time and written examination. It doesn't matter what the subject is, it's the standard of learning you do, and the tools to learn that you acquire that are important.
IMHO a "token" degree is a mythical beast, like a unicorn.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Mine admits it is art, yours pretends to science. Rowboy

What was yours in again, something about writing, what was it...oh yeah, that was it, "copy-writing", wasn't it?

 

[bhamgeezer]

Your tutition helps pay for the teachers and the facilities.

Yeah its the teachers that I am saying could be done without in some cases. Why isn't there a bare bones option that is less expensive and only covers access to the essential facilities, administration and examination costs?

 

[DotCommunist]

What was yours in again, something about writing, what was it...oh yeah, that was it, "copy-writing", wasn't it?

Creative Writing ya cheeky old bastard.

It's about craft, elegance and the ancient art of entertaining volk through the medium of fictions. I wouldn't expect a military sort to understand the value of a well crafted fiction. Unless it's one labeled 'orders and operational objectives'

 

[ViolentPanda]

Creative Writing ya cheeky old bastard.

I know, but I couldn't resist insinuating that you'd sink so low as to do a degree in (gobs in johnnymarrsbarr's direction) "advertising".

It's about craft, elegance and the ancient art of entertaining volk through the medium of fictions. I wouldn't expect a military sort to understand the value of a well crafted fiction. Unless it's one labeled 'orders and operational objectives'

That's it, that's the last time I vote for one of your stories!

 

[SpookyFrank]

There's people who will argue that outside of pure maths and core science degrees they are all token

That's ridiculous.

Engineering degrees aren't useless.

All the others are though. A BA is basically the same level of academic achievement as when the slow kid at school got a pat on the head from the teaching assistant for making it through a whole day without pissing himself.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's ridiculous.

Engineering degrees aren't useless.

All the others are though. A BA is basically the same level of academic achievement as when the slow kid at school got a pat on the head from the teaching assistant for making it through a whole day without pissing himself.

Looks like all you learned from yours is how to talk arse.

 

[EastEnder]

A BA is basically the same level of academic achievement as when the slow kid at school got a pat on the head from the teaching assistant for making it through a whole day without pissing himself.

Don't knock arts degrees. They help keep the technically inept off the dole queues for a few years, and give otherwise superfluous types a fleeting sense of self worth. It's nice to keep people happy.

 

[mrs quoad]

Creative Writing ya cheeky old bastard.

It's about craft, elegance and the ancient art of entertaining volk through the medium of fictions. I wouldn't expect a military sort to understand the value of a well crafted fiction. Unless it's one labeled 'orders and operational objectives'

Out of interest, what's the employment rate for creative writing graduates?

e2a:

Yes I did 2 years of a Creative Writing degree (might get round to resuming that at some point) but really it only honed my narrative style and had me look closer at structure and plotting.

Oh

All the others are though. A BA is basically the same level of academic achievement as when the slow kid at school got a pat on the head from the teaching assistant for making it through a whole day without pissing himself.

I'm... guessing... that in your terms, DotComm's wet himself, and my string of failed BAs indicates a serial enuresist?

 

[likesfish]

Creative Writing ya cheeky old bastard.

It's about craft, elegance and the ancient art of entertaining volk through the medium of fictions. I wouldn't expect a military sort to understand the value of a well crafted fiction. Unless it's one labeled 'orders and operational objectives'

no that would be intelligence briefings

al qaidia trained insurgents will attack between 2300 and 0000 why because they have to get the nightbus home
or my favorite the ira asu are driving a green golf any idea how many green gulfs there are in germany

 

[ViolentPanda]

no that would be intelligence briefings

al qaidia trained insurgents will attack between 2300 and 0000 why because they have to get the nightbus home
or my favorite the ira asu are driving a green golf any idea how many green gulfs there are in germany

No, but we can phone Wolfsburg and find out!

 

[not-bono-ever]

at UG level, everything will most likely be someones elses ideas - how you phrase their ideas in your work is the difference

out and out C&P is a bit bogus

 

[mrs quoad]

at UG level, everything will most likely be someones elses ideas - how you phrase their ideas in your work is the difference

Not everyone!

sorry for being a c**t but to any smug pleb who got a 2:1 and thinks they coulda gotten a first dont make me laugh

for most degreees you cant get a first in your degree just by working hard.

Lots of people can get a 2:1 you to get a 1st actually have to think outside the box, be quite brainy, you know?

With my uni for example, when i went back to the professors after getting 74 per cent in my degree they explained that i had come up with a brand new theory in industrial relations that could qualify me straight on to a PHD programme if i wanted. I pushed my brain very hard to come up with the idea which required studying in the veterinary and philosophy sections of the library - totally outside my course.

I was also assured that before they gave me the first, they sent my paper to Oxford, UCD's sister uni for marking - to have it checked by a professor there to get a second opinion.

so anyone who thinks that getting a first is easy if you get a 2:1 is talking bollocks.

and just for the record, I wasnt a swot - i worked full time in restaurants and dept stores for 3 years, gave up the job in april but really, really THOUGHT about my subjects, questioned everything and read unusual but relevant stuff for the exams at the tail end.

thats the difference

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not everyone!

Yeah, but she's "special".