A world without America?
- Thread starter Kid_Eternity
- Start date
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
You can't say 'No America' without going changing the outcome of the War Of Independence and that the various bits of it remained colonies, that the Indian wars happened but in a different way...and the impact that a non-united states would have had on European politics - for example, what would happen if a UK monarch moved the political hub of the Empire to the Americas?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Easy - the big Imperial powers maintained a policy of divide and rule over the US as I say above - the French get the South, UK the North East, Spanish get the West coast, Texas remains independent...
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
Well I have absolutely nothing against the American people. I was thinking the US as a sovereign nation and the US government.foreigner said:
Like Kyser has said, if something had happened and the US had ceased to exist as a nation after WWII and simply split into areas controlled by other nations (or even self-governed but militarily weak areas) the world would be a far better place today.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Invalid logic. it doesn't follow that the world would be 'better' - the most you can say is that it would be 'different'
Same as saying that without Marx the world would be a better place - it doesn't follow that reality-Xfactor=better
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
This whole thread should be in Science and Technology or that Philosophy forum really. It's an inetersting question but can shed no light on anything. As sucky as it often is, History is Hitory, the Present wouldn't be the Present unless the Past was the exact same Past. So we may as well ask what would happen if the planet Earth orbited Alpha Proxima A instead of Sol or something.
Politics and Debate is all about the Present and the Future maaan....
Politics and Debate is all about the Present and the Future maaan....
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
dylanredefined said:Well no America no one to supply the red army so hitler probably not defeated . No israel as no jews left,Doubt many arabs left either not particulary aryan are they and with out America doubt the uk could have been
able to fight in the middle east .Let alone asia .
Probably crueller and less advanced planet .No America europe still keeps its empire .
Bag of arse.
Who's to say how German (or French, or Spanish, or Belgian or British) expansionism would have gone in the years after 1777? How do you know that Russia would have gone Communist, that the Final Solution would have taken place, etc etc?
Put the thinking cap on next time.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
kyser_soze said:
Exactly.
*Harrumph*
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
kyser_soze said:
I thought the UK did move the imperial hub to the Americas...
dylanredefined said:
The USA supplied Nazi Germany too.
American Corporations and Hitler
American Aid to the Soviets...and to the Nazis
After the war, it would become customary in the West to claim that the unexpected Soviet success against Nazi Germany had been made possible because of massive American assistance, provided under the terms of a Lend-Lease agreement between Washington and Moscow, and that without this aid the Soviet Union would not have survived the Nazi attack. This claim is doubtful.
First, American material assistance did not become meaningful before 1942, that is, long after the Soviets had single-handedly put an end to the progress made by the Wehrmacht and had launched their first counteroffensive. Second, American aid never represented more than four to five per cent of total Soviet wartime production, although it must be admitted that even such a slim margin may possibly prove crucial in a crisis situation. Third, the Soviets themselves cranked out all of the light and heavy high-quality weapons — such as the T-34 tank, probably the best tank of World War II — that made their success against the Wehrmacht possible. 34 Finally, the much-publicized Lend-Lease aid to the USSR was to a large extent neutralized — and arguably dwarfed — by the unofficial, discreet, but very important assistance provided by American corporate sources to the German enemies of the Soviets. In 1940 and 1941 American oil trusts increased the lucrative oil exports to Germany; large amounts delivered to Nazi Germany via neutral states.
The American share of Germany's imports of vitally important oil for engine lubrication (Motorenöl) increased rapidly, from 44 per cent in July 1941 to 94 per cent in September 1941. Without US-supplied fuel, the German attack on the Soviet Union would not have been possible, according to the German historian Tobias Jersak, an authority in the field of American "fuel for the Führer." 35 Hitler was still ruminating the catastrophic news of the Soviet counter-offensive and the failure of the Blitzkrieg in the East, when he learned that the Japanese had launched a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941. The US were now at war with Japan, but Washington made no move to declare war on Germany.
King Biscuit Time
Well-Known Member
Hmm, taking the piss out of people 'Doing business' with Saddam???
Thank god America exists, so that *they* can do it instead.
Thank god America exists, so that *they* can do it instead.
The ad was not particularly historically literate, but it did make one valid point: that the USA, after World War II, did prevent Western Europe from becoming an appendage of the Soviet Union. Stalin, had he not died in 1953, was ready with plans for an invasion of Western Europe in 1954. The United States, through NATO, preserved democracy in France, West Germany, Scandinavia, Britain and the Low Countries, and through the Marshall Plan rebuilt the economies of western Europe. It also built democracy successfully in Japan, and through its defence of South Korea and Taiwan enabled them to become the prosperous democracies they are today. Britain, along with these countries, is wealthier, freer and more influential now than it would have been had it been under Soviet rule from 1954 to 1990. Americans have produced great films, great art, and great opportunities for millions of people, including myself.
This is not to say that the US has not done some pretty terrible things in pursuit of its goals. In order to beat back communism, it propped up dictatorial and racist regimes, and launched a war in Southeast Asia that cost millions of lives. It has started a vicious and pointless war in Iraq that is shaping up to do the same. It has resisted the idea of meaningful action to combat global warming. I won't attempt to justify any of those things, but for me they're not enough to make me think that a world without America would be better.
This is not to say that the US has not done some pretty terrible things in pursuit of its goals. In order to beat back communism, it propped up dictatorial and racist regimes, and launched a war in Southeast Asia that cost millions of lives. It has started a vicious and pointless war in Iraq that is shaping up to do the same. It has resisted the idea of meaningful action to combat global warming. I won't attempt to justify any of those things, but for me they're not enough to make me think that a world without America would be better.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
There's something about that phrase that jars. What are we more concerned with? "Democracy for all" or "democracy for some"?
It would appear that the US could only associate 'communism' with the Soviet Union; though I'm sure Gramsci, if he was still alive, would take issue with that sentiment.
BlackSpecs
The DogFather
zion said:
Surely America did this out of self-preservation . Ever heard of the term Bufferstate ?! It's not that they are some wizards travelling the world and bringing democracy to all ........in the end they(the communists) all wanted to wear Levis thats why it all came tumbling down IMO !
talking about the rebuilding of Europe : did you know that germany only finished repaying its war-debt to the US last year ??? ( not some kind of criticism just an amazing fact i think )
King Biscuit Time
Well-Known Member
That was the UK wasn't it?
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
T & P said:I take Mears hasn't seen this thread yet...
Thank fuck. Although him and his loony mates probably wanked off over it when it was shown on Fox news last night...
King Biscuit Time
Well-Known Member
It reminds me of that horrible story you see on Fash websites about what the world would be like if there were no white people. 'It's a wonderful race' I think it's called, makes you wanna puke.
nino_savatte said:
It's not a weird reason. He's a pillock.
I agree with him about Israel and the US being in the wrong but he still has a pop at me. What a daft twat.
But back to thread. No US wouldn't mean less trouble as some bastard would only do the same sort of stuff anyway.
This time it's bush but some other semi facist twat would only step in to fill his boots.
Blackspecs,
"Surely America did this out of self-preservation"
Would this, if true, make what they did not good?
In the Soviet Union there was democracy for ... nobody. So for Western Europeans, it's definitely a plus for democracy that they were under American protection rather than under Soviet rule.
"Surely America did this out of self-preservation"
Would this, if true, make what they did not good?
In the Soviet Union there was democracy for ... nobody. So for Western Europeans, it's definitely a plus for democracy that they were under American protection rather than under Soviet rule.
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