Discussion in 'Wales/Cymru' started by shygirl, Apr 6, 2018.
The first rule of the club is...
Literally TERFed out of your seat!
What about me. I've asked you repeatedly and you can't answer can you?
This is a transcript of the talk given by Jeni Harvey last night.
A Woman’s Place Is Speaking Out – Harvey Jeni – Medium
they did!! a minor inconvenience indeed
was quite rude tho
No, I don't consider you to be a woman. I'm genuinely sorry if that is upsetting to you but I'm not going to lie about it and as you say you've asked repeatedly so there we are.
Edit, I don't think you should leave here though, unless it's for your own mental health (this place has done my head in sometimes and I've had to have a break from arguing).
Sorry that happened ddraig.
Thanks for the honesty.
It doesn't work like that though.
I'm just upset that steth doesn't call your obvious transphobia out.
In all honesty I can't stay on these boards
Do you mind if I leave until tomorrow to post my thoughts on the meeting? I'm travelling up to Sheffield, so will have a few hours on the train. I'm kinda burned out, and don't have the energy to do it at mo.
Course not, and no obligation anyway.
Thanks for posting that speech, there’s much I agree with there.
Not agreeing that a person is a woman, rather than, say, a trans woman, is not transphobia.
As this is the third or fourth time you've said you're leaving, I really think it'd be best if you did now. This place obviously isn't doing you any good and if, as your latest tagline says, you 'no longer care if you live or die' then you really should get some professional help. Urban 75 is a full-on place if you get involved in the weighty issues and if you're not resilient enough for the flak, not being here really is the best option.
You do have friends here and if you ever feel up to it I'm sure you'll be welcomed back, but right now it's painful to see what this place is doing to you.
I really think you should take a break from here and discuss your self-destructive thoughts with someone qualified to help.
You're probably going to be angry with me for saying this but I say it out of genuine concern. I hope things improve for you soon, Sea Star, I really do.
Sea Star who gives a fuck. No one on urban is the gatekeeper of womanhood. You know who and what you are ❤ Take a break and get well x
My point is that these groups are not only about raising concerns and that whatever legitimate arguments they may have had are being used to give left cover and legitimacy to bigotry, they are being used to persuade people to support these arguments that would not normally.
The fact that this sort of thing is allowed to be said in this fair play for women group without comment, the fact that she is allowed to stand there giving a presentation based on humiliating trans women's looks for several minutes without anyone challenging her on it and to the entire audience laughing should tell you something.
This is just patronising bullshit and your second (unquoted) point doesn't diminish the one you were responding to, either.
Why is this conversation just not allowed to take place?
why is it bullshit? I believed a lot of this stuff for ages, and I have posted on the thread about why I believed it. there is nothing patronising about pointing out that points that people have raised about sport etc are being used to fit a far-right narrative in which trans people are seen as evil. and for what it is worth I agree that there are certain cases which require further consideration like for example the case of trans women prisoners who have assaulted other female inmates.
there is nothing wrong with having the conversation, but my point is that someone standing giving a presentation mocking people's appearance, etc, for several minutes unchallenged should at least give you the clue that it is not a neutral venue, it is not a place where someone who is trans is likely to feel comfortable to respond with their point of view being heard properly, and that their interest isn't only in 'having a conversation'.
(edited - never mind)
Mate, you’ve given a horrid and extreme example of a woman humiliating transgender women. You’ve then used that as a reason why other women should not be discussing the impact of self-id on sexism.
That isn’t proportionate or fair. It’s actually part of the problem, that sort of behaviour. Please stop it.
If that's relevant then it's also relevant that women have been physically attacked (which is what drew me in first, fwiw) for trying to have the same conversation and that there are equal examples of poor behaviour re that if you look for it - but that still shuts down the conversation.
The suggestion that the women who want to speak about it are being manipulated for wanting to have the conversation, that they are aligned to the right, that they just don't get it, that it's fucking personal - and where those opportunities are constantly being closed, is just offensive.
im sorry if it seemed like i said otherwise, but i don't think people shouldn't be having the conversation at all, in fact I think its actually important to discuss this properly?
its just these groups and organisations such as 'a woman's place' and 'fair play for women' are not neutral to say the least, they are clearly ideologically biased, some of the people speaking have an agenda other than just discussing concerns as they say, and they are not helping matters to say the least. I can completely understand why trans people would not want to take part in a debate in such a hostile environment. not that people shouldn't discuss it at all but I seriously do not think what they are doing is the best way to go about it.
I think there are a lot of women finding it a hostile environment. So, HOW do we discuss it?
Could we start by reigning the likes of Venus fucking Allen in, for example? I am aware, open and willing to engage but ... I can't abide panic-drama-look at me- merchants...and they are the ones ramping things up on both sides.
In all seriousness, I want to get involved, I want to have a view...the extremes on both sides make me want plant daisies as an equally childish and inadequate response.
Thank you for Posting this
And this is why we can't have nice things
I've calmed down a bit. I'm feeling a bit low and lost at the moment with a few things political and personal, so gonna have a break from here for a while x
stethoscope Has my post upset you or do you agree? It matters to me, straight up.
I entirely agree with it fwiw, its totally my frustrations with the whole sorry situation.
Of course, you must do what's best for you.
But it'd be a shame for this place, generally, if you were to go. And, specifically, for the anyone with hopes of a sensible, solidarity-building discussion of this topic. If there's any one person on these boards who is sufficiently well liked and respected by people across the spectrum of views, it's you. I think you could offer a valuable insight from the perspective of a woman with your history, and someone who is politically sound.
I did hesitate to say this, as I wasn't sure it's fair to lumber you with the emotional burden that engagement would entail. But decided to, in the end.
yes i know, and im sorry if my post came across as patronising.
honestly I don't know answers to it all. but I don't think that groups such as WPUK or fair play for women are remotely helpful or the way to go about it, the rhetoric around the topic is way too extreme and things are being blown out of proportion (and I totally agree that the same is true of some of the extreme trans activists). I don't know what the answer is. I don't see why these things can't be worked out on a case by case basis, clearly there does need to be a conversation but I think these groups are making it worse rather than helping the situation if you see what I mean.
I dont want to participate in this thread very often or repeat the various arguments I had in that other thread that got locked, so please forgive me for focusing very narrowly on just one small part of that speech.
I am desperately hoping that people I know that are opposed to my own stance on all manner of other aspects, will still see the horror in this paragraph, ie even if you agree with some of where they are coming from and what they might be trying to articulate, can you really ignore the broader implications stemming from the way they've tried to define this struggle with those words? The attempts to further marginalise and make insignificant the minority group, the conflation of one sort of majority with supposed majority opinion, the assumption that such agendas can only be achieved by silencing this supposed majority entirely. That sort of thing.
Honestly, just imagine all the other situations that people could apply the arguments and framing from that paragraph to historically, its not a good place to be at all. If you have a strong case then there should be no need to resort to this kind of stuff.
Yes, that bit did not sit comfortably with me.
Separate names with a comma.