A Woman's Place is Speaking Up in Wales

Discussion in 'Wales/Cymru' started by shygirl, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. Ralph Llama


    When people exclude me from political activity due to me being `too radical`, I say... fuck them, they are not worth bothering with/contributing to. I do not try to sab their movement. But that`s just me.
    shygirl likes this.
  2. Ranbay

    Ranbay The same rules apply

  3. MochaSoul

    MochaSoul It's being enslaved of your own free will

    No woman, no man, no trans has ever been excluded from a WPUK meeting.
    shygirl, MadeInBedlam and Ralph Llama like this.
  4. Ranbay

    Ranbay The same rules apply

    I just want to know what the Ruth Women had against people dressing up as dogs :hmm:
    Pickman's model likes this.
  5. Red Cat

    Red Cat Well-Known Member

    Same for me.

    I hope you're still here stethoscope.
  6. Ranbay

    Ranbay The same rules apply

    Well there was no trouble at all at the new venue.
  7. MochaSoul

    MochaSoul It's being enslaved of your own free will

    You dressed up as a dog for the meeting?
  8. MochaSoul

    MochaSoul It's being enslaved of your own free will

    MadeInBedlam likes this.
  9. Ranbay

    Ranbay The same rules apply

    Yeah that's literally what i said.
    shygirl and MadeInBedlam like this.
  10. Ranbay

    Ranbay The same rules apply

    I'm not there.
  11. frogwoman

    frogwoman лягушкая женщина


    I've been doing a lot of rethinking of my own politics recently and I think this is true. People do have concerns but I really do not think this is the most important issue in feminism, trans people are not going to 'erase' women or female biology or anything like that. I also think that some of the legitimate concerns around eg medicalisation or what have you (which is frankly more of an issue in the US, rather than the UK where people have to wait years for anything like that) are being used and taken advantage of to legitimise bigotry against some of the most vulnerable people in society.

    I admit I have fallen for this stuff in the past and I am sorry for anyone I upset or hurt because of that.

    Trans people are not the enemy and some of the things said by people such as 'the women's place' etc are extreme and sound like a conspiracy theory. I also think that people need to be careful assuming that just because someone has a good record of activism in other areas it automatically means that their views are going to be sound on this.
  12. frogwoman

    frogwoman лягушкая женщина

    I can't comment on that particular event but I do know that whenever this topic comes up there are people who come out of the woodwork to post extreme, discriminatory stuff. You can't tell me that it is all about concerns about women's privacy, maybe that's how it started out but I don't think it is now. The recent stuff with the youtube shooter for instance, when people were posting a conspiracy theory that she was 'really' trans and evidence of this was being deleted from the internet. Disgusting shit.
    elbows, ddraig, Vintage Paw and 2 others like this.
  13. MochaSoul

    MochaSoul It's being enslaved of your own free will

    Speculation about mass shooter’s sex isn’t sexism, it’s a result of systematic gaslighting about biological sex of trans-identified perpetrators
    shygirl and ice-is-forming like this.
  14. Ranbay

    Ranbay The same rules apply

    Might jump in the Albany for a pint, it’s taking ages to finish
    ddraig likes this.
  15. frogwoman

    frogwoman лягушкая женщина

    Do you really think that if she was trans that someone would not have reported it?
    Pickman's model likes this.
  16. frogwoman

    frogwoman лягушкая женщина

    and yeah there are predatory men, and people do lie about things. That doesn't mean that there is any basis to make up a conspiracy theory which just seems to be aimed at stirring up hate and fear. If there is any evidence that she was actually trans I would like to see it, but I don't think there is.
    Pickman's model likes this.
  17. MochaSoul

    MochaSoul It's being enslaved of your own free will

    Not the point of the article. When people are wholesale marked as bigots as soon as they enter the debate, when they read article after article dismissing their concerns as anti-trans and when they see women being attacked for describing raped baby girls as "female" while political party wings advertise lying on medical forms it's only natural they'll see conspiracy. It's up to others to stand up against it but they don't. It's not politically expedient to stop it. Choices have been made and not by women. When they speculate they are guilty again but by then they've ceased to care (I, for example, don't even though different reasons prevented me from speculating about the shooter's sex).
  18. frogwoman

    frogwoman лягушкая женщина

    from that link:

    if you can't challenge the 'trans narrative' without being accused of transphobia, maybe you should ask yourself why.
    elbows likes this.
  19. Edie

    Edie Well-Known Member

    frogwoman it’s not the most important issue in feminism, it’s really frustrating the way it’s become that.

    But you mention crime, and the article posted above raises a point. Men have undisputedly higher levels of violent crime than women. If trans women have a similar level of violence as men, but their crimes are logged and counted as women’s crime, what does that mean? What might be the effects of that?

    One effect might be a seeming decrease in the statistics of male violence, and an increase of ‘female’ violence. Might that muddy understanding of sex biased crime?
    Might it lead to a reduction in schemes and policies that protect women?

    I don’t know! I don’t. Maybe the numbers would be too small to be of any influence. Maybe taking female hormones would make trans men more likely to act and behave like women when it comes to violent crime.

    But the fact is that no one yet knows. So I think the concern is, if you jump straight to the demand that says ‘trans women are women’ and there must be no discrimination between trans women and women (in policy, in public spaces, in statistics, in language) then that feels like it might be, that it COULD be, bad news for women.

    Maybe not. But enough surely that we must be able to talk about this, without being accused of bigotry and hatred.

    God damn, we have put up with fucking centuries of male violence, we are allowed to bloody discuss this!
  20. MochaSoul

    MochaSoul It's being enslaved of your own free will

    Oh but we do. It's just that our answers only get "You're a bigot!" retorts (unless we're trans, in which case we're "useful idiots")
  21. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    I think relatively speaking the number of trans women is so low that if it really makes a dent in the figures it will only serve to show the disparity due to being born male, or just not make a dent, in which case it will point towards the toxic effects of being socialised as male. Whichever way it pans out, I hope it could lead to some progress.

    Edit: sorry, that was in response to Edie
    Edie, Thimble Queen and frogwoman like this.
  22. frogwoman

    frogwoman лягушкая женщина

    8ball likes this.
  23. dialectician

    dialectician The Main Enemy is at home.

    What utter bollocks. racism isn't about a few bad eggs. it isn't about some random bloke off the street calling you a turkish cunt.

    Racism and anti-blackness infects every facet of reality we engage with. Racism is downplaying peoples personal and political agency. racism is depriving people of community resources. racism is making it much, much harder in a legal and professional context for the people being marginalised. Racism is about the education system telling you you are second class and must prostrate beneath whities feet from day fucking one. Racism is about using people as token bait (romas, irish, greek etc) about accentuating capitalist divisions within the working class. racism is about centuries of whitewashing of history. Racism is gendered, racism is patriarchal. Racism is about domestic abuse, about rape, about drugs, cops getting off scott free. racism is about war crimes and the way we respond to them. And I could go on and on.

    Frankly I'm appalled that in 2018 we can still discuss racism as if its just hate crime. On an anarchist forum no less.

    Go back to your treacherous imperialists in the lp, then.
  24. frogwoman

    frogwoman лягушкая женщина

    This article seems to be challenging some of the radical feminist claims about trans people in quite a detailed debunking.

    elbows, Edie, ddraig and 1 other person like this.
  25. MochaSoul

    MochaSoul It's being enslaved of your own free will

    I stopped reading here:
    The trans umbrella has widened to include all manner of people from the weekend crossdresser to intersex people who don't even want to be included in that so that piece misrepresents me when they say that I think all trans are criminals when what I say is that it the law needs to be careful about how it goes about making it easier for trans people (which I agree) without putting women in danger and am I simply dogwhistling?

    There you have it.
    shygirl likes this.
  26. frogwoman

    frogwoman лягушкая женщина

    But that is not all that is being said is it.
    ddraig, Fozzie Bear and dialectician like this.
  27. MochaSoul

    MochaSoul It's being enslaved of your own free will

    But the current politics of what people are are exactly that: reframing axis of oppression to mere insulting/discriminating/yada. It applies as much to sexism as to racism.

    No real analysis, for example, of why it was not acceptable for me to bleach my skin to fit in socially crafted structures that put me in the equivalent of the special needs group in my class but it's seemingly acceptable to unquestioningly affirm children's claim to be the wrong sex because they don't like pink and love trucks knowing that being a child is the time in human development to explore and discover.
    shygirl likes this.
  28. ddraig

    ddraig dros ben llestri

    I was in there!! Then got surrounded by them!! And ousted from table!!!
    Ranbay likes this.
  29. ddraig

    ddraig dros ben llestri

    It was held in a school
    scifisam likes this.
  30. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear Well-Known Member

    I think that's great question. And the answer is obviously no.

    But I think it means people have a duty to be kind and compassionate.

    Which is a big ask.

    And not turn it into a shouty abstract parlour game. And not leap into mad stereotyped examples of the other side as the default option.

    Which seems very hard for a lot of people online.

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