A Woman's Place is Speaking Up in Wales

Discussion in 'Wales/Cymru' started by shygirl, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. stethoscope

    stethoscope Well-Known Member

    Clearly, despite having posted many many times over the years on this stuff, and relating my own complex situation pretty openly, and people here even having met me, I'm not a woman in their eyes. Oh well, I think its best just to cut ties with urban now. I've had a good time mostly, cheers to all I've met and had good times with. I can't be done with this 'debate', especially how social media seems to have turned it into an utter fucking mess of dishonesty. Nice to see you again @Edie x
     
    Vintage Paw and Pickman's model like this.
  2. spanglechick

    spanglechick High Empress of Dressing Up

    Oh my darling. I'm so sorry you feel this way.
     
  3. Thimble Queen

    Thimble Queen person of tinge

    That's really shit. Not everyone thinks that way. Sorry you are dealing with this shit xx
     
  4. Spymaster

    Spymaster Cockney Wanker

    Don’t do that. It’s only a handful of people you’re referring to.
     
  5. Edie

    Edie Well-Known Member

    Thanks for this Vintage Paw. I think a lot of what you say is true.

    Yep, important to remember that the vast majority of people no matter what orientation are just good decent folk going about there lives with absolutely no interest in you.

    What are the benefits of self ID for trans? Being able to escape the medicalisation and beaurocracy of it? Not to underestimate this. A massive thing. Not to have to prove yourself to the state and doctors.

    Do you think it will lead to more men just ‘trying it out’ for a short amount of time without any real intention or feeling that they’re a woman (is that a stupid question? It sounds daft). Or that some men may use it as a defence for being in woman’s spaces? What about psychiatric wards or prisons where women are very vulnerable? Or do you think there should be ‘third’ spaces, but how would this work with such low numbers?

    This is true. But some women do feel really scared of this, especially if the person is drunk?

    Agreed

    This is also true. It’s absolutely crazy that the fear is so based around a penis, and whether the thought of a big masculine trans man just isn’t as frightening if they don’t have a penis.

    A lot of it doesn’t make rational sense if you try to pin it down. But how would you feel if you were a woman locked in a cell or locked on a ward with a trans woman with a penis? It’s cringey writing this stuff about penises but that is largely what it comes down to, that fear that someone bigger and stronger than you who may want something you don’t want to give could hurt you?

    There’s also what was mentioned up thread about voyers and flashers and upskirters and men that like to rub up against you. This shit is *common*. Most women have encountered multiple disgusting men of this kind and they obviously have no morals at all. I’ve been flashed three times in totally different places (on a bridge in Dublin, out running in Leeds and on an estate walking home in Brixton). These men get their kicks from basically shocking women with their dicks. This would be a green card for them? I don’t worry so much for myself as I’ve seen enough dicks to give the disgusted look and get the hell out of there, but I worry for younger girls in changing rooms.

    To be clear I’d very much doubt any of those flashers was trans and there’s probably no connection between trans and sex crimes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  6. chilango

    chilango Neither Westminster nor Brussels....

    Don't go.

    You have useful things to say.

    A rare commodity these days.
     
  7. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model every man and every woman is a star

    i hope you reconsider and decide to stay
     
  8. Edie

    Edie Well-Known Member

    Don’t do that, please.

    You are actually someone I hold in my heart when thinking about issues around gender. Because your dignity, what you have been through, and your rights as a person to not have a life filled with absolute bollocks and violence just to fucking be, is so important.

    I always think of you as a woman, always have. No question mate.

    I feel I might of said some wrong things, so pull me up or rely on Vintage Paw or Spanglechick if you’re too fucking tired.

    But ‘knowing’ you a bit, listening to what you’ve been through, it has (for however pathetically worth it this is in the face of what you’ve been through) made me stop and think about what all this may mean for you.
     
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  9. stethoscope

    stethoscope Well-Known Member

    I mean, Christ, I'm not even a huge fan of the self-ID changes for the GRA personally, but I granted people on here a bit more than to just regurgitate shit from social media whatever the positioning as some sort of argument line. Its full of nutcases and trolls and I don't think I ever meet anyone who believes half the shit that gets said on there. We've had ten years of radfem vs transactivist blog wars which doesn't offer anything except just making wild claims, harassment (and radfems were the ones to ramp this shit up first), and they still quoted openly as sensible sources. I utterly despair sitting in the middle, just looking at this all and thinking, just use a bit of everyday humanity, experience, and logic in all this. Not because some unhinged lookatmememe cunt on the internet says something and everything kicks off 10x. Fuck me.
     
  10. stethoscope

    stethoscope Well-Known Member

    Thanks @Edie. Not aimed at you at all, just my utter despair at the lack of sense in all this stuff, like the rest of politics, etc. now.
     
    Pickman's model likes this.
  11. chilango

    chilango Neither Westminster nor Brussels....

    You see what I mean about having something useful to say!
     
  12. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    That would be a great loss to this place. You're one of a small number of posters who know their onions. Please reconsider.
     
  13. Edie

    Edie Well-Known Member

    Yes yes yes a hundred times.

    This debate needs to be taken back from the absolute dickheads on there tweets and blogs saying bonkers extreme shit that just has no bearing on reality. Who wouldn’t even say or think that given half an hour round an actual table with real people with their struggles and fears.

    Fuck the stupid people and the ideological rants. They are the real enemy here.
     
  14. ElizabethofYork

    ElizabethofYork Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    I'm so sorry you feel like this. It's only a handful of people here who would say you're not a woman, surely?
     
  15. Edie

    Edie Well-Known Member

    This made me laugh btw :D
     
  16. weepiper

    weepiper Jock under the bed

    stethoscope please don't go. I sincerely hope I'm not one of the people you feel are driving you away. I absolutely consider you to be a woman.
     
  17. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty IdProle

    Don’t leave. I’ve been trying to get drawn into this less (sometimes failing :rolleyes: ); I’m interested in the philosophical question but at the same time don’t have a dog in the race and it isn’t going to affect me either way.
    And as Chilango says, you know you’re stuff and that’s a dying breed on here of late.
     
  18. 8ball

    8ball Hetero Sapiens

    That's the next band name sorted. :thumbs:

    Also, stethoscope: what they said.
     
    Edie and Pickman's model like this.
  19. Edie

    Edie Well-Known Member

    Fucking hell thats really made me think.

    If some how the debate we’re having is somehow driving away the very bloody people for who this is about trying to help make the world less shit for, then we’re having this debate wrong.

    Because no matter how bloody trying and scary it can be being a woman (and a man no doubt too at times), that pales in the face of how fucking intimidating and hard and exclusionary it must be to be trans.

    There has gotta be a better way to talk about the changes that trans and intersex people need and deserve from society, whilst also recognising the fears from non trans folk, especially women’s fears around men.

    I dunno how. But somehow it shouldn’t be tolerated to hold up this shit on twitter and say ‘trans women want to force you to suck dick or punch you’ or ‘terfs think this that or the other violent bullshit’. Like that somehow is the case when it just blatantly isn’t.
     
  20. spanglechick

    spanglechick High Empress of Dressing Up

    Can I just say Edie - how refreshing your contributions here have been. So glad to see you back.
     
    Edie likes this.
  21. stethoscope

    stethoscope Well-Known Member

    Thing is, life is bloody trying and scary for many of us - whether we be average 2.4 families, single mothers, working class men long-term unemployed, LGBT, black, have disabilities or care for those that do, whatever. At this time more than any, I get most fucked off by the fact that working class and 'left' people particularly, are battling away at each other more than ever whilst we're in a fucking horrendous state of affairs of austerity - the erosion of the welfare state, kids killing each other around my old ends for fun, privatisation of every little bit of last social provision we have around us, etc. So much time spent now othering and attacking for difference. We need to get back to celebrating real life community and what unites us more than ever. We definitely need to stop hopeless politics based on 'identity'.

    I'm not going to dismiss any woman's concerns about the potential misuse of self-id, and I've called out pricks who also consider themselves trans for some pretty dubious comments before on this stuff (although unsurprisingly, on occasion its turned out to be not someone trans at all, but a loudmouth lad who thinks he's doing trans people some sort of favour). I think what frustrates me so much is how any way of trying to properly discuss this has already become so ingrained in toxic, hateful ways, magnified by social media because its not a 'tool' for this. In some ways, it would have been better for womens and trans support/healthcare/political groups, government, etc observing that clearly what mostly originated through a social media/internet war of words, and then occasionally spilling out into the offline world, to have got together themselves a bit more organised early on and they could have set the tone for any discussion, ensuring better that it was held in meetings, surveys in a respectful and honest way, using facts and figures that sets out to find compromise and not smear and create fear either way. For that reason, I get a little frustrated that comrades I admire like Serwotka have become so easily aligned with this stuff - I'd expect people like her to sit back a bit and not get pulled into especially social media 'upping the ante', doesn't mean she can't still take an ideological line on some of it, but realising that so much of this is social media generated bullshit and that ultimately, the real world turns. But then, that seems to be how all political discourse happens now. Like Bellos after years and years of knowing Kaveney and seemingly respecting her transition, then suddenly and deliberately starts to misgender. I mean, it's just pathetic and posturing as this politics has become.

    I get frustrated because when I was involved in a lot of trans/feminism stuff some years ago, we really started to build up proper alliances of sometimes quite opposing thought all realising that they are united by more things than split.

    The GRA stuff baffles me a bit. If anything, the GRA needed the spousal veto resolving, not really this. Besides, the GRA is a piece of paper that is taken up by very few trans people usually after they've done all their psychiatry assessments, their hormones, their 2 years 'in real life experience', and often surgery too. I'm not a big fan of the State particularly having the say on who's now a 'reassigned female/male' and charging people for the benefit, but the GRA is what it is. Ironically, the GRC (Gender Recognition Certificate) isn't even supposed to be something that is readily talked about or 'showed'. It's supposed to be something that gets locked away in a box with a new birth certificate for the benefit of legal reasons, pensions, originally so trans people could marry opposite sex in the pre-same sex marriage days, and in case they get discriminated against.

    In everyday life, most trans people just get on with their transition, tend to use the toilets of their acquired gender (sex), and are usually very reluctant to even using changing rooms, etc. until they have some level of comfortability in themselves in doing so but also that they're not going to get abuse/have found some level of 'passing' (horrible term, but yes, it exists in terms of self-protection in a gendered society). That's always happened, and always will. Most trans people I know, always felt some sort of, well 'privilege' isn't quite the right word, but appreciation and sensitivity of the space (especially women's) they are in - whether that be toilet, etc. because they've never been 'explicitly invited' (nor have trans men). But on the whole they are accepted. And for the overwhelming majority, they just want to go to toilet, etc. without any hassle.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
    Omaplata, TikkiB, MrSpikey and 30 others like this.
  22. Edie

    Edie Well-Known Member

    Yes and that’s the reality isn’t it
     
    spanglechick likes this.
  23. Sea Star

    Sea Star have you ever explored your dark side?

    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  24. stethoscope

    stethoscope Well-Known Member

    ...
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
    Pickman's model likes this.
  25. SheilaNaGig

    SheilaNaGig Struggling and striving

    Eh?

    You keep doing this Sea Star , and while I understand that you feel upset and ill used on here, I’d say that it’s just not true that you’re “not woman enough” for this place. I think of you as a woman, it’s only when you do this that I stop and remember that there are issues around it for you. Please consider that the people who are posting strongly or wrongly or both are those who are trying to work things out in their own heads, and so they might get things muddled or need clarification or schooling. There are loads of us who don’t say much but who don’t feel any umbrage or weirdness about your womanhood. In fact, I’d say that my own schooling is about how tough this all is for folks like you and stethoscope , because in my world it really isn’t very much of an issue at all. I’ve really learned a lot about now different it is outside my bubble.
     
  26. SheilaNaGig

    SheilaNaGig Struggling and striving

    And stethoscope : I really hope you do stick around. Not only do I find your postings on these matters really insightful and interesting, I also really enjoy your music stuff too.
     
  27. Sea Star

    Sea Star have you ever explored your dark side?

    I was doing fine on here - mending bridges from the last shit show - my mental health had improved - and I was starting to enjoy being on urban 75 again.

    Then this shit show started and I tried to keep it together, but on Sunday night my mood plummeted and I felt suicidal. Since then I've been anxious and not able to deal with anything.

    So I have to go. If this place had been even vaguely supportive I might not be going, but I can't take the damage this is doing to my mental health.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  28. nogojones

    nogojones Well-Known Member

    Do you have some links for this? I'd be interested in reading how this plays out
     
    Pickman's model likes this.
  29. stethoscope

    stethoscope Well-Known Member

    ...
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
    Pickman's model likes this.
  30. Sea Star

    Sea Star have you ever explored your dark side?

    I'm going. Nobody wants me here. Bye.
     

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