nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Dutch squaddies are already unionised and have been for years.
A trade union for squaddies?
- Thread starter dennisr
- Start date
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
<shrugs> So what? My dad's bigger than your dad. 
Gosh! I've had conversations like this in many a NAAFI. I don't think it's a matter of having a union in an army or not. Both offer a false solution, when, in fact, the problem itself is false.
Embedded in the consciousness of the army is the ancient country house set-up. At the top you have the elites, then various grades of time-serving NCO's, and at the bottom you have the peasants. The fact is that the army is innately INEFFICIENT at what it's supposed to do. The really efficient units we have are shrouded in secrecy and work principally on a non-hierarchical basis.
Do not under-estimate the power of the peasants when they are being led by donkeys. If the leadership is crap (which it often is) then there are (unofficial) ways of dealing with them. And when your life is continually being put at risk there are more effective ways of dealing with Ruperts.
The most efficient defence forces are made up of militias. In the early 70's I was among a group who produced "Alternatives to NATO". A manual that promoted the defensive efficency of these groups when pitted against Divisions of invading troops. You don't need to look far these days to see how similar groups are holding down the most technologically advanced armies in the world.
Unions in the army? A waste of time. What's wrong with the army is the army.
Embedded in the consciousness of the army is the ancient country house set-up. At the top you have the elites, then various grades of time-serving NCO's, and at the bottom you have the peasants. The fact is that the army is innately INEFFICIENT at what it's supposed to do. The really efficient units we have are shrouded in secrecy and work principally on a non-hierarchical basis.
Do not under-estimate the power of the peasants when they are being led by donkeys. If the leadership is crap (which it often is) then there are (unofficial) ways of dealing with them. And when your life is continually being put at risk there are more effective ways of dealing with Ruperts.
The most efficient defence forces are made up of militias. In the early 70's I was among a group who produced "Alternatives to NATO". A manual that promoted the defensive efficency of these groups when pitted against Divisions of invading troops. You don't need to look far these days to see how similar groups are holding down the most technologically advanced armies in the world.
Unions in the army? A waste of time. What's wrong with the army is the army.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
And the military has ways of dealing with mutineers...if they are caught.
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
The Dutch Marines are said to be very good though.
Amongst those with a preference either way, may be. With the benefit of hindsight, I doubt any one of us will ever really know what people-in-general “really wanted”. Indeed, most people seem confused or ambivalent about what they want. Apart from perhaps a zig-a-zig-ah.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
dutch marines very professional along with certain other units conscripts not and useless.
militia fine for defensive use pretty piss poor for an op like bosnia or the Falklands and being an island need an ocean going navy to defend sea lanes and supplys difficult to do with a milita set up
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I know, it's just jealousy on my part, having had to hump a sodding great SLR around.
Probably not.
Quite. Agreed. If you're interests are about invading other countries then you need an army and a navy and an air force to drop bombs.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Mmm, he's actually right about Commando units.
They're only investigated if they become known about, I'd have thought that was obvious even to the bloated human wrecks that inhabit the sgt's mess.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Unfortunately for "the people", the orders given the armed forces are mediated through government, or more precisely, through cabinet, that notoriously inclusive and representative body who aren', honestly, in thrall to the Establishment that they belong to, no way!!
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
the party must control the gun rather than the other way round.
the BAFF seems a much more appropriate organization.
can't see them turning up on protests.
Though a military organized protest would be different at least
massive run for the barbers, boot polish and irons ,spray starch
"bye the left calling for the dismantling of the oppressive capitalist state quick march"
pot bellied would hate it trying to keep up
The barbers? You posho!
I'm starting to suspect you're a Sandhurst boy, fishie. What's wrong with a set of clippers, eh? Eh?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The ringleaders would, and possibly a percentage of the "rank and file", but it would be pointless to court martial everyone where carrying out exemplary punishment on a smaller number per encourager les autres would work much better.
Nope, you're entitled to proper representation.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Wasn't this used by CPGB members and supporters during the end of WWII and conscription in the 1950's? Using the rule book to try and build a power base!
Arguably one of the reasons for the end of conscription!
likesfish
You can't park here sir
The barbers? You posho!
I'm starting to suspect you're a Sandhurst boy, fishie. What's wrong with a set of clippers, eh? Eh?
because my last "mate" I let near my hair with a set of clippers (csm being anal about haircuts week before we left on leave
) set clippers to bald oh sorry about that have to do the rest.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Just replace the state in you last sentence with the 'employers' or the 'bosses' and 'army' with 'union'
Its not that hard to work out is it?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
because my last "mate" I let near my hair with a set of clippers (csm being anal about haircuts week before we left on leave
I used to do mine myself, that way I had no-one to blame but me if I fucked up on the sheep-shearing front.
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
I used to do mine myself, that way I had no-one to blame but me if I fucked up on the sheep-shearing front.
Tee Hee.
I'm sure your sergeant major would have been delighted to blame no-one but you if your hair was a millimetre longer than regulation length.
Sergeant majors having, as a rule, VERY little difficulty in expressing their displeasure and getting their point across. I remember the last person to seriously annoy my late grandfather, long after he'd retired from the bootnecks. He got a blast of invective that would have made a bishop kick a hole in a stained glass window.
I hope you don't mind, Peter, but to rescue this from obscurity I got hold of a copy and made it available in the libcom library.
Edit to add information:
Corax
Luke 5:16
Just replace the state in you last sentence with the 'employers' or the 'bosses' and 'army' with 'union'
Its not that hard to work out is it?
Yeah, it's not that I don't grasp the concept (I think). It's that the nature of the army, the 'armed' bit, makes allowing it a far more dangerous idea for the government than with any other group.
When militants/radicals/whatever get what the government deem to be 'out of hand', they always have the fallback option of enforcing their authority by calling the army in. If it was the army that was the problem, who would they call in, the police?
dennisr
the acceptable face
Yeah, it's not that I don't grasp the concept (I think). It's that the nature of the army, the 'armed' bit, makes allowing it a far more dangerous idea for the government than with any other group.
When militants/radicals/whatever get what the government deem to be 'out of hand', they always have the fallback option of enforcing their authority by calling the army in. If it was the army that was the problem, who would they call in, the police?
I agree with your point about just how dangerous the state will view such an initiative - more reason to support that initiative. For me - weakening the control of the state over the armed bodies of men that make up its institutions of control is a useful initiative to support. It does not mean I have any illusions in those armed bodies of men. After all, as has been pointed out, the majority of individuals that make up these armed bodies come from working class communities and families.
It is the opposite of reinforcing the seperateness of the individuals that make up these armed bodies of men from the rest of the population they will be used against at some point in the future - as they have been used in the past. This is precicely the role the state plays - in its 'special treatment' of coppers etc.
Its an important bonus for me - over and above the role a union can play in independantly representing; initiating the voicing of the individual opinions of; and defending the conditions of, the individuals that make up those armed bodies of men.
By the way - in Germany there are even police union initiatives!! - generally these are semi-underground
Corax
Luke 5:16
Don't get me wrong; I'd certainly support it as I'd far prefer an armed body of men to have allegiances to workers than the state. I just couldn't ever see it being 'allowed' to get off the ground in the UK. Sorry, I don't mean to sound like SWEK by just being negative. I'll watch with interest and if it gains momentum I'll feel very happy to be surprised.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Yep, that's what i think too - but it lays the groundwork for future situations when the dialema of being a working class squaddie is more obvious. And like you, I'd feel dead happy to be proven wrong.
In germany, so I'm told, antifa used to get a lot of its leaks from coppers in the small and very 'unofficial' trade union.
I may have this worng but I also remember reading somewhere that some of the future leaders of the mass unemployed workers movement in the 30s came from the liverpool police strike? blacklisted ex-coppers - now there a thought
There you go, from Wiki:
British police strikes in 1918 and 1919
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_police_strikes_in_1918_and_1919
And What Next? Journal:
The ‘Spirit of Petrograd’? The 1918 and 1919 Police Strikes
http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk/Pages/Latest/Police.html
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Heh, I have TACM on PDF.
My favourite bit is on taking down powerlines with weighted steel cable, earthed. 'let go of the cable immediately after it is thrown'
sound advice
Don't mind at all, mate. In fact the manual developed from an earlier mid-70s article written by some ex-service personnel. It apppeared in the famous "Anarchism Lancastrium" - the forerunner of "The Cunningham Amendment."
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Found this surfing the internet
Suprised that anybody would put it in a public domain!
http://uk.geocities.com/oglaigh_na_heireann32/THE_GREEN_BOOK.html
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
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