A trade union for squaddies?

[chainsaw cat]

Must have stung.

Still, once it's off life gets simpler, eh?

I never looked back. Only problem was I couldn't get a job as a copper.


You have to be a complete.... oh I can't go on.



Anyway, unions for squaddies; I don't like this patronising shit from non military armchair radicals. If you would like to join up and do something about it, fine.

Don't trot out ill founded ideas and expect to be taken seriously by anyone who has served / is serving.

I echo VP on the surprise news that lots (and I mean LOTS) of soldiers are very left wing. Some of them probalbbly wouldn't describe themselves that way but they are.

The Army is to a large degree a meritocracy, as well as pretty heirarchical in its approach to problem solving and planning.

These are aspects of Socialist utopia. If you can get on with them, or like them, you are likely to be a bit of a lefty.


Discuss.

 

[chainsaw cat]

Anyone, Serb or not, who is that stupid, deserves anything they get, in my admittedly cynical and world-weary opinion.

I'm just trying to imagine how hard it must have been not to succumb to an overwhelming temptation (not that you'd have probably done any damage with those 5.56mm pea-shooter things they issue you nowadays ).

7.62 on the vehicles.

5.56 does, despite conventional wisdom, settle the argument with a degree of finality.

Serbs are terrible soldiers, they have never won a war.

Nor do they have a union in their army as far as I know. Coincidence?

 

[Bakunin]

So you haven't served and your grandad, a royal marine (not army), who I have the utmost admiration for, stopped being current in the 40's yet you claim as having taught you all about the modern army. Which Commando was E Company apart of ? Your grandad must have seen lots of active service in his time. I'd like to have swapped stories and had the odd beer with him.

You have nothing to back up your claim about the British Army shooting defaulters in the back during wartime as a punishment. Blue on Blue is not what you were refering to. You were not on about other amies, fragging etc etc you have not proved anything about the British Army of which it seems apparent you know very little.

You should know what Commando your grandad was in, you being in a long line of Royal Marines 'n all, even I know which Commando was at Stonehouse Barracks in 47/48 and I was a pongo.

I wasn't on about defaulters, I was referring to soldiers considered unreliable and/or dangerous under fire by their fellow soldiers. And the reason I put the phrases 'friendly fire' and 'blue on blue' in quotation marks was to illustrate the, shall we say, not always entirely accidental nature of such incidents.

My grandfather wasn't in a Commando, as he enlisted in 1927 when Commando units didn't exist, thus he was simply a Royal Marine in those days as not every Royal Marine had been inducted into a Royal Marine Commando unit. It wasn't until Commando units, both the Army Commandos and the Royal Marine Commandos were raised that the Royal Marines had Commando troops. The Army Commandos were disbanded after the war, while the Royal Marines became a fully Commando unit and took over Commando operations, combining them with their role as amphibious infantry.

 

[quimcunx]

Serbs are terrible soldiers, they have never won a war.

They've never lost one.





So I've heard.

 

[dennisr]

Anyway, unions for squaddies; I don't like this patronising shit from non military armchair radicals. If you would like to join up and do something about it, fine.

Don't trot out ill founded ideas and expect to be taken seriously by anyone who has served / is serving.

I'm guessing the same is true of any union (just replace the word 'squaddie' with the word 'worker'

 

[chainsaw cat]

Yeah, from a Serb.

They are just not very good soldiers. I can't vouch for their general efficiency in other areas.

Perhaps the average Serb is perfectly capable of sending email to the correct recipient, say, or doing embroidery.

Not my area.

 

[dennisr]

percy topless

 

[chainsaw cat]

percy topless

Toplis.

 

[dennisr]

Toplis.

apparently

 

[DotCommunist]

It really wouldn't take too much soldier co-opting, just a few key UK based bods and enough of te Police force to keep the others locked down.

nice, quiet little english coup.

 

[quimcunx]

Yeah, from a Serb.

They are just not very good soldiers. I can't vouch for their general efficiency in other areas.

Perhaps the average Serb is perfectly capable of sending email to the correct recipient, say, or doing embroidery.

Not my area.

They make good dentists.

I've met a Serb who fought against you in the war. He then went on to be jailed for belonging to an illegal student organisation, which supports you and VPs left wing thing.

They don't excel at emails IME.

 

[chainsaw cat]

They make good dentists.

I've met a Serb who fought against you in the war. He then went on to be jailed for belonging to an illegal student organisation, which supports you and VPs left wing thing.

They don't excel at emails IME.

What, me specifically? Did he crew a mortar by any chance, the bastard?

Anyway, I don't see why they'd need to be good dentists.

Every Serb has such nice teeth.

Oh, now hang on....

 

[quimcunx]

What, me specifically? Did he crew a mortar by any chance, the bastard?

He didn't give names. He said it was some idiot who wasn't wearing his body armour. Revenge for a friend of his who got shot in the face.

 

[chainsaw cat]

Even when it hurts, you have to be impressed by the elegance of Karma.

 

[Zapata]

Oh, and "sgts mess"? Elitist middle-management twat!

 

[MikeMcc]

Which would be easier to fucking achieve if they had a fucking union that could play its role in seperating thinking fucking soldiers from the fucking state

(now i sound like a pissed squadie..)

The Army (I can't speak for the other services) does do alot to explain the relationship between the government and the military both in basic training and in follow up educational courses.

It should be borne in mind that one of the first things done is to swear the oath during attestation, the god bothering version is:

I (state your name), swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors and that I will as in duty bound honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, her heirs and successors in person, crown and dignity against all enemies and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors and of the generals and officers set over me.

In basic training it provides the distinction between lawful and unlawful orders. The training in the Law of Armed Conflict has been completely revamped in the last few years. Subsequent educational courses to qualify for the 2nd and 3rd stripes introducce the structure of the government and how that relates to military law and taskings.

 

[MikeMcc]

If you think this current shower of pig turds are "lefties" then you're so fucking deluded you need to get yourself sectioned.

Oh, and "sgts mess"? Elitist middle-management twat!

Oi, nowt wrong with the Sgt's Mess, better quality of summer and christmas do!

 

[Zapata]

I wasn't on about defaulters, I was referring to soldiers considered unreliable and/or dangerous under fire by their fellow soldiers. And the reason I put the phrases 'friendly fire' and 'blue on blue' in quotation marks was to illustrate the, shall we say, not always entirely accidental nature of such incidents.

My grandfather wasn't in a Commando, as he enlisted in 1927 when Commando units didn't exist, thus he was simply a Royal Marine in those days as not every Royal Marine had been inducted into a Royal Marine Commando unit. It wasn't until Commando units, both the Army Commandos and the Royal Marine Commandos were raised that the Royal Marines had Commando troops. The Army Commandos were disbanded after the war, while the Royal Marines became a fully Commando unit and took over Commando operations, combining them with their role as amphibious infantry.

I think you know very little about the British Army, I don't think you know much about the Royal Marines either despite claiming a long line of family RM's and what you do know you've pulled from a website quickly this morning. You need to read up more if you're going to tell porkies.

You have no proof whatsoever of British soldiers killing in the way you describe. And Blue on Blue incidents are all investigated. None have been found to be murder. When it comes to this you are full of shit.

 

[Zapata]

Oi, nowt wrong with the Sgt's Mess, better quality of summer and christmas do!

Hear hear.

BTW I'm a war pensioner and when I left the Army and started work as a civvie I joined a union, still in it. Unions have their place and are needed but the Armed Forces , can't see it happening in my lifetime.

 

[belboid]

I think you know very little about the British Army, I don't think you know much about the Royal Marines either despite claiming a long line of family RM's and what you do know you've pulled from a website quickly this morning. You need to read up more if you're going to tell porkies.

You have no proof whatsoever of British soldiers killing in the way you describe. And Blue on Blue incidents are all investigated. None have been found to be murder. When it comes to this you are full of shit.

funnily enoughj, that was almost exactly my feeling about you! You've slammed down other people for not,knowing 'enough', or being 'out of date' but have actually been incredibly vague about saying anything yourself that would indicate an actual army experience.

You come across like a wannabe, but one who's never actually done owt.

 

[Corax]

Which would be easier to fucking achieve if they had a fucking union that could play its role in seperating thinking fucking soldiers from the fucking state

(now i sound like a pissed squadie..)

I fucking well don't fucking get it.

How can you separate soldiers from the state? They're tools of the state; that's their very raison d'etre.

 

[Zapata]

funnily enoughj, that was almost exactly my feeling about you! You've slammed down other people for not,knowing 'enough', or being 'out of date' but have actually been incredibly vague about saying anything yourself that would indicate an actual army experience.

You come across like a wannabe, but one who's never actually done owt.

That's your opinion and I don't have a problem with that.

 

[belboid]

of course, i do hate everyone from bloody scunthorpe at the moment, but i'm sure thats by the by

 

[Zapata]

How can you separate soldiers from the state? They're tools of the state; that's their very raison d'etre.

The Armed Forces are the tools of the State/Government ?

But the State/Government are elected by the people, therefore the Armed Forces are tools of the people ?

 

[Zapata]

i do hate everyone from bloody scunthorpe at the moment,

Who doesn't.

 

[belboid]

The Armed Forces are the tools of the State/Government ?

But the State/Government are elected by the people, therefore the Armed Forces are tools of the people ?

yeah,cos the people really wanted an invasion of iraq to secure western oil interests didnt we?

one of those rare occasins when this is appropriate -

 

[likesfish]

the party must control the gun rather than the other way round.
the BAFF seems a much more appropriate organization.
can't see them turning up on protests.

Though a military organized protest would be different at least
massive run for the barbers, boot polish and irons ,spray starch

"bye the left calling for the dismantling of the oppressive capitalist state quick march"
pot bellied would hate it trying to keep up

 

[Zapata]

yeah,cos the people really wanted an invasion of iraq to secure western oil interests didnt we?

one of those rare occasins when this is appropriate -

The above is just an obvious example of an elected Gov't not doing what the people wanted or expected of them.

Those lefty cunts said "no more war" among other things and that helped them get elected. Blair is a war criminal and should be hung....after a fair trial of course.

 

[belboid]

so (to go back to the point bakunin raised, and you repeatedly dodged) what would happen if the squaddies said they were standing by the opinion of the british people and refused to follow orders into an illegal and unsupported war? they'd be court-martialled pretty much as bakunin said, wouldn't they?

and without any kind of union to defend them, they'd be completely and utterly fucked, wouldn't they?

 

[Zapata]

so (to go back to the point bakunin raised, and you repeatedly dodged) what would happen if the squaddies said they were standing by the opinion of the british people and refused to follow orders into an illegal and unsupported war? they'd be court-martialled pretty much as bakunin said, wouldn't they?

and without any kind of union to defend them, they'd be completely and utterly fucked, wouldn't they?

I haven't dodged any point of bakunin's post and bakunin hasn't as far as I can see actually posted the above comment. You're putting words in bakunin's mouth.

Refusing an order isn't automatically a Courts Martial, Fact.

A Soldier can have have all the legal, both Military and Civilian*, help he/she wants at a Courts Martial, Fact. So no they are not as you say "completely and utterly fucked"

This is the part of bakunin's post that I think is utter bollocks and bakunin's has not proved: "punishable in wartime by those responsible possibly copping a bullet in the back next time they go into action."

This is the last thing I'm going to say on this: A Union for Servicemen and women sounds good but IMO will not happen for many, many years.

* At my Courts Martial I was represented by the Military and a Civilian barrister.

Have a nice day.