A trade union for squaddies?

[Urbanblues]

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism...”

So spoke Major General Smedley Butler in 1935. Does anyone on these boards really suppose things are very different today – Iraq, Afghanistan...and troops deployed in around 128 other countries (that's the US).

 

[Zapata]

But it isn't at all self explanatory. You have failed to state on exactly what he is out of date, or what, if anything, has replaced the 'out of date'...whatever it is.

Without those things, I have absolutely no reason to take your word that Bakunin is wrong about anything. I'm not in the army, never have been, but his statement tallied with my understanding of the legalities of refusing to obey orders.

OK fair enough, the Army Act 1955 is, as can be found out by a quick google, the basis for military law etc etc not as he/she tries to imply the actual regulation concerned with disobeying an order.

It is a bit like me dropping the words "Police And Criminal Evidence Act 1984" into a discussion on law to make it seem like I know the score on all things law like.

 

[Fedayn]

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism...”

So spoke Major General Smedley Butler in 1935. Does anyone on these boards really suppose things are very different today – Iraq, Afghanistan...and troops deployed in around 128 other countries (that's the US).

The full statement is even better....

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

 

[dennisr]

If one cares about people's rights...

Perhaps one might fucking start with not fucking shooting them in the fucking face on the whim of the fucking state.

Which would be easier to fucking achieve if they had a fucking union that could play its role in seperating thinking fucking soldiers from the fucking state

(now i sound like a pissed squadie..)

 

[dennisr]

I think a voluntary army like the one in the UK makes the aims of this organisation a damn sight harder to achieve than it would be in say an country where the army is based on conscription/national service - but, in some ways, it makes the need for a seperate voice for ordinary soldiers all that more important and useful. And the possibility of a union would be all the more useful if the state ever had to try and introduce conscription

 

[Urbanblues]

The full statement is even better....

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

Yep.

 

[Urbanblues]

Which would be easier to fucking achieve if they had a fucking union that could play its role in seperating thinking fucking soldiers from the fucking state

Abso fuckin' lutely!

 

[Zapata]

I think a voluntary army like the one in the UK makes the aims of this organisation a damn sight harder to achieve than it would be in say an country where the army is based on conscription/national service - but, in some ways, it makes the need for a seperate voice for ordinary soldiers all that more important and useful. And the possibility of a union would be all the more useful if the state ever had to try and introduce conscription

I have to say that joining a union was never a top priority for me or any other squaddie I knew in the time I served. IMO you're right in saying that as a Vol Army it will/would be very hard for a union to get any support.

As mentioned in an earlier post there are org's to help squaddies but the Gov't could and should do more for serving and ex forces.

With this present Gov't it would be a great help if they didn't keep going to war. Still we the people picked this bunch of cunts at the elections and the armed forces have to do their bidding.

So lets hope at the next election that these lefty cunts get voted out and the next Gov't decides no more war and uses the forces in productive peaceful work for the good and benefit of the Sgt's Mess er I mean the peoples collective of the UK. Long live the workers, comrade.

 

[Bakunin]

So you haven't actually served in the armed forces ? or were you a bootneck ? I'm guessing that you are a pads brat.

You can PM me the name of the Company your Grandfather was a CSM of, if you like.

You implied by saying "and punishable in wartime by those responsible possibly copping a bullet in the back next time they go into action." that British soldiers shoot each other in the back as punishment and you have no proof whatsoever.

How exactly does eavesdroping on pissed squaddies help your "case" ?

My grandfather was CSM of E Company at Stonehouse Barracks, Plymouth in 1947-48, after which he spent a while in the QM stores just prior to his retirement.

I realise that death by so-called 'friendly fire' (known in British forces as a 'blue on blue' isn't something that is widely disseminated, it being something that the armed forces would wish to keep quiet about. But it happens, as I proved in an earlier post which supplied a definition of 'fragging' that shows it has gone on for a VERY long time. It didn't just begin in Vietnam, nor is it confined to the US Army either.

 

[Urbanblues]

‘War is a Racket’ by Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient Major General Smedley D. Butler - USMC Retired. A must for all aspiring military shop stewards.

 

[Zapata]

My grandfather was CSM of E Company at Stonehouse Barracks, Plymouth in 1947-48, after which he spent a while in the QM stores just prior to his retirement.

I realise that death by so-called 'friendly fire' (known in British forces as a 'blue on blue' isn't something that is widely disseminated, it being something that the armed forces would wish to keep quiet about. But it happens, as I proved in an earlier post which supplied a definition of 'fragging' that shows it has gone on for a VERY long time. It didn't just begin in Vietnam, nor is it confined to the US Army either.

So you haven't served and your grandad, a royal marine (not army), who I have the utmost admiration for, stopped being current in the 40's yet you claim as having taught you all about the modern army. Which Commando was E Company apart of ? Your grandad must have seen lots of active service in his time. I'd like to have swapped stories and had the odd beer with him.

You have nothing to back up your claim about the British Army shooting defaulters in the back during wartime as a punishment. Blue on Blue is not what you were refering to. You were not on about other amies, fragging etc etc you have not proved anything about the British Army of which it seems apparent you know very little.

You should know what Commando your grandad was in, you being in a long line of Royal Marines 'n all, even I know which Commando was at Stonehouse Barracks in 47/48 and I was a pongo.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Before I answer that how about telling me the "many, many other things" the armed forces don't get told.

That you'll end up spending at least 20% of your wages supplementing your kit in order to be presentable was always my favourite.

 

[ViolentPanda]

er OK but when I said that he/she was out of date, I meant he/she was...well out of date, self explanatory I thought.

Not really, because you provided no context.

 

[ViolentPanda]

As an ex-squaddie I spend an awful lot of time in the nick or doing jankers.

Once I was up before a Captain Wills (the cigarette people, don't you know?) of the Coldstream Guards. I was on a charge of not handing in my PT kit back into the stores. "How do you explain this?" he demanded. I thought I had a cast-iron defence: "I didn't have any PT kit out, Sir."
"Very well, you have nothing to say. Seven days extra guard duty."

That about sums up the sense of justice and the pervading stench of class in the army. I learned a lot about Anarchism in the army - not much else.

It's amazing how civvies don't believe you when you tell them that the British army produces a disproportionate amount of hard leftists and anarchists of various stripes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You were lucky (said in a monty python voice)

No, he was grateful (said in Neddy Seagoon voice).

 

[ViolentPanda]

If one cares about people's rights...

Perhaps one might fucking start with not fucking shooting them in the fucking face on the whim of the fucking state.

Bad soldiering to shoot people in the face.

You're taught to aim for the largest body mass (the torso), you see.

 

[ViolentPanda]

OK fair enough, the Army Act 1955 is, as can be found out by a quick google, the basis for military law etc etc not as he/she tries to imply the actual regulation concerned with disobeying an order.

The Army Act 1955 was the last re-working of mutiny, given the events of '45-48 (except the late '90s downgrading of the tariff from death or a life sentence to a "flexible" tariff), so it's probably germane.

It is a bit like me dropping the words "Police And Criminal Evidence Act 1984" into a discussion on law to make it seem like I know the score on all things law like.

No, citing PACE 1984 would make you sound like a tit to anyone who wasn't dead, given the amount of revision that PACE has undergone in the last 25 years.

 

[chainsaw cat]

....


But then, the suggestion that enlisting guarantees a life of fun and adventure is rather more attractive to anyone thinking of signing up than the thought of their ending their days living in a cardboard box, drunk and/or stoned out of their brain and with maybe one or more limbs missing.

... hey, that's me!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I have to say that joining a union was never a top priority for me or any other squaddie I knew in the time I served. IMO you're right in saying that as a Vol Army it will/would be very hard for a union to get any support.

As mentioned in an earlier post there are org's to help squaddies but the Gov't could and should do more for serving and ex forces.

With this present Gov't it would be a great help if they didn't keep going to war. Still we the people picked this bunch of cunts at the elections and the armed forces have to do their bidding.

So lets hope at the next election that these lefty cunts get voted out and the next Gov't decides no more war and uses the forces in productive peaceful work for the good and benefit of the Sgt's Mess er I mean the peoples collective of the UK. Long live the workers, comrade.

If you think this current shower of pig turds are "lefties" then you're so fucking deluded you need to get yourself sectioned.

Oh, and "sgts mess"? Elitist middle-management twat!

 

[chainsaw cat]

Bad soldiering to shoot people in the face.

You're taught to aim for the largest body mass (the torso), you see.

'aim for the centre of the body exposed' or some similar wording - so, Violent Clever Clogs, if it was just the head poking up out of, say, a sandbagged emplacement, then the face would be entirely the right thing to shoot at.


eeeh, these Inf. types.

 

[ViolentPanda]

... hey, that's me!

A penis doesn't count as a "limb", does it?

 

[Fedayn]

It's amazing how civvies don't believe you when you tell them that the British army produces a disproportionate amount of hard leftists and anarchists of various stripes.

Worked for me.

 

[chainsaw cat]

It's amazing how civvies don't believe you when you tell them that the British army produces a disproportionate amount of hard leftists and anarchists of various stripes.

I got in trubble for pretending to start a union once. Not much trubble, just a bit.

Shouldn't have called the SSM 'Brother'.

 

[ViolentPanda]

'aim for the centre of the body exposed' or some similar wording - so, Violent Clever Clogs, if it was just the head poking up out of, say, a sandbagged emplacement, then the face would be entirely the right thing to shoot at.


eeeh, these Inf. types.

Typical non-infantry, making the assumption that the only reason the person was shot in the face was because only their head was showing. Don't you know that current shooting fashion is "executioner-style"?

By the way, what sort of monkey spunk-gobbling, thorough-going IDIOT hasn't arranged a decent field of vision from their sandbagged emplacement that necessitates them sticking their bonce above the parapet? Someone who deserves, nay, YEARNS FOR a bullet in the face!!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Worked for me.

And me, and many others.

 

[chainsaw cat]

A penis doesn't count as a "limb", does it?

Mine did. It was feckin' huge. Took a TMRP-6 to knock 'er off.









I understand you were done cruelly with a .177" Webley....?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I got in trubble for pretending to start a union once. Not much trubble, just a bit.

Shouldn't have called the SSM 'Brother'.

"Kamerad Stabsfeldwebel" would have been better.

 

[chainsaw cat]

Typical non-infantry, making the assumption that the only reason the person was shot in the face was because only their head was showing. Don't you know that current shooting fashion is "executioner-style"?

By the way, what sort of monkey spunk-gobbling, thorough-going IDIOT hasn't arranged a decent field of vision from their sandbagged emplacement that necessitates them sticking their bonce above the parapet? Someone who deserves, nay, YEARNS FOR a bullet in the face!!

Serbs.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Mine did. It was feckin' huge. Took a TMRP-6 to knock 'er off.

I understand you were done cruelly with a .177" Webley....?

Tis a base lie.

Twas a BB gun.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Serbs.

Anyone, Serb or not, who is that stupid, deserves anything they get, in my admittedly cynical and world-weary opinion.

I'm just trying to imagine how hard it must have been not to succumb to an overwhelming temptation (not that you'd have probably done any damage with those 5.56mm pea-shooter things they issue you nowadays ).