A thread of people still desperately trying to act like Brexit was a good thing

[Pickman's model]

The meaning seems fairly clear to me, whether you agree with the sentiment or not.

i don't see any sentiment in it.

 

[PTK]

Many of us would prefer a united Ireland in any case. You'll note since we're here again, no one voted to leave the customs union either.

The establishment of a united Ireland would not solve the problems that the Six Counties face as a result of Brexit, though. The difficulties that businesses in the North face when trading with Britain arise from the fact that Northern Ireland is in effect still part of the European Union. Those businesses would still face those difficulties were the Republic of Ireland to absorb Northern Ireland.

 

[Ax^]

My liberal ex-pat uncle and his French wife were shedding bitter tears because if their daughter gets into Cambridge, she’ll have to pay the fees that foreigners pay. I didn’t have the heart to ask him what taxes he’s paid into Britain that might justify his daughter being subsidised by the British state (answer: nil).

you know you should post this in the main benefits of Brexit thread

after 10 years we have some more concrete than someone fuzzy tum tum feelings

we have a true benefit of Brexit, costing you cousin more in tuition


because fuck your uncle Pat

 

[Spymaster]

you know you should post this in the main benefits of Brexit thread

Is that still going?

Thought it got closed/binned.

 

[T & P]

Is that still going?

Thought it got closed/binned.

Error 404- benefits not found

 

[Spymaster]

Error 404- benefits not found

Well there have been benefits but the tactic here is to deny that they're benefits at all, even when they pointed out clearly, like has happened on this thread.

The problem on these boards is that people are looking for personal benefits; so unless Brexit tucks them into bed, sings them lullabies, and deposits money straight into their bank accounts, the benefits don't exist. It's all about queues at airports for their couple of weeks a year in Spain, or the fact they can't emigrate to Europe as easily as they could do, despite the fact that 99% of them would never have done so anyway!

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

No supermarket shortages, no economic collapse, no WW3 breaking out over Dover,

What? There were supermarket shortages or did my fevered brain just make it up. We still struggle with supplies of certain products - as a nation - and a lot of UK companies are still hanging on by their fingertips - plus absolute decimation of our economy, which is still refusing to recover. And everything is more expensive now - remember over 10% inflation and now many of us can't afford things we could afford before Brexit? Jeez - this poster consistency lives in a Daily Mail inspired fantasy land. Also things around Dover are no fucking picnic - millions have been invested to keep things rolling round here, and it still all comes to a halt regularly.

And who the fuck is better off? Who?

It was supposed to be the end of life as we knew it. Civil war breaking out as people starved and fought for the last scraps of food!

Didn't happen, and the supermarkets have as much stuff in them now as they ever did.

I don't remember anyone claiming this. The actual predictions, as opposed to these ones you're making up, all came to fruition, and we are now just living with them.

 

[Ax^]

Well there have been benefits but the tactic here is to deny that they're benefits at all, even when they pointed out clearly, like has happened on this thread.

a list please

 

[Rimbaud]

Brexit gave us all the opportunity to observe the insecurities and inner-terrors of the liberal left.

Forever wringing their hands and sobbing quietly but performatively, they claimed to desire decisive economic and social change, and yet, lacking the will or imagination required intervene in the process themselves, they revealed themselves, at the first hint of societal unpheaval, to want nothing more than the warm embrace of our bureaucratic, neo-liberal EU overlords. And this while blind to the fact that the overlords state quite clearly that they are there precisely to prevent decisive social and economic change in any EU member state.

The liberal left aren't the ones claiming to desire economic and social change.

The fact is that the left does not exist as a decisive political force in this country, and apart from the brief interlude of Corbyn (who never managed to properly control the Labour Party and even if he was elected probably would have been victim to some intrigue or another) has not for a long time.

Leftists who do desire economic and social change but opposed Brexit were simply cheering on liberals who had no interest in economic and social change from a position of powerlessness; but leftists who supported Brexit were cheering on fascists who had interest in economic and social change of a very different sort to what they want, and Brexit was one significant step on the road towards getting it. This was from if anything an even more powerless position, as the chance of Lexiteers influencing the direction of Brexit - whose biggest and most active proponents were the hard right of British politics - was miniscule.

It was obvious from the start that a hypothetical left wing Brexit was never going to happen and that it was a political movement led by the far right. I don't think getting a left wing Brexit is any more credible than getting a left wing EU, and both are impossible while there is no organised left of any note.

That said, socialism in one country is impossible so retreat from transnational organisations without putting any alternative forward is inherently reactionary IMO.

 

[Spymaster]

What? There were supermarket shortages or did my fevered brain just make it up. We still struggle with supplies of certain products - as a nation - and a lot of UK companies are still hanging on by their fingertips - plus absolute decimation of our economy, which is still refusing to recover. And everything is more expensive now - remember over 10% inflation and now many of us can't afford things we could afford before Brexit? Jeez - this poster consistency lives in a Daily Mail inspired fantasy land. Also things around Dover are no fucking picnic - millions have been invested to keep things rolling round here, and it still all comes to a halt regularly.

And who the fuck is better off? Who?


I don't remember anyone claiming this. The actual predictions, as opposed to these ones you're making up, all came to fruition, and we are now just living with them.

Utter balls.

The supermarket shortages were caused by global supply chain problems, COVID, and global energy issues, not Brexit. There were also empty shelves in supermarkets in Germany, France, Italy, Canada, and the US.

The UK economy has not been decimated or anything like it. It's about 0.5% lower growth than the EU average. Get a grip!

Inflation was global. The US, the EU, and Japan all had double digit inflation spikes. Brexit did not cause Russia to invade Ukraine and blow-up energy prices.

Brexit cause and effect still seems optional for you.

Who's better off? ... See earlier post.

Stop having a tantrum just because everything didn't collapse the way you wanted it to.

 

[Spymaster]

a list please

See earlier posts.

 

[Rimbaud]

And not only that. But due to the votes of the unwashed -those trapped in dying towns, on the crime ridden estates, with no prospect of ever owning a home or getting a secure job - their own kids can't have a year studying in Tuscany any more and they have to join the non EU queue on their holidays.

Study finds wealthy 'more likely to have voted for Brexit'

Wealthier voters were more likely to have voted for Brexit than those of lesser means, according to a new study.

www.kcl.ac.uk

This caricature is lazy - the wealthy were more likely to vote for Brexit.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well there have been benefits but the tactic here is to deny that they're benefits at all, even when they pointed out clearly, like has happened on this thread.

why surely all the discussion we've had has been a great benefit.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

And who the fuck is better off? Who?

I am

 

[Spymaster]

why surely all the discussion we've had has been a great benefit.

And long may it continue!

 

[Dystopiary]

The liberal left aren't the ones claiming to desire economic and social change.

The fact is that the left does not exist as a decisive political force in this country, and apart from the brief interlude of Corbyn (who never managed to properly control the Labour Party and even if he was elected probably would have been victim to some intrigue or another) has not for a long time.

Leftists who do desire economic and social change but opposed Brexit were simply cheering on liberals who had no interest in economic and social change from a position of powerlessness; but leftists who supported Brexit were cheering on fascists who had interest in economic and social change of a very different sort to what they want, and Brexit was one significant step on the road towards getting it. This was from if anything an even more powerless position, as the chance of Lexiteers influencing the direction of Brexit - whose biggest and most active proponents were the hard right of British politics - was miniscule.

It was obvious from the start that a hypothetical left wing Brexit was never going to happen and that it was a political movement led by the far right. I don't think getting a left wing Brexit is any more credible than getting a left wing EU, and both are impossible while there is no organised left of any note.

That said, socialism in one country is impossible so retreat from transnational organisations without putting any alternative forward is inherently reactionary IMO.

We could have a poll: Were you "cheering on liberals who had no interest in economic and social change from a position of powerlessness" or were you "cheering on fascists who had interest in economic and social change of a very different sort to what they want"? Or were you more of a fence-sitter? Plus a couple of silly options.

 

[ouirdeaux]

But due to the votes of the unwashed -those trapped in dying towns, on the crime ridden estates, with no prospect of ever owning a home or getting a secure job - their own kids can't have a year studying in Tuscany any more and they have to join the non EU queue on their holidays.

How high are those walls keeping them in the dying towns, and how would you compare the risks of escaping from them with, say, getting out of a war zone, or leaving East Germany back in the day?

Because when I lived on the continent in my 20s, courtesy of a British passport conferring free movement throughout the EU, I met quite a few other British passport holders similarly making use of their freedoms. And they weren't from wealthy families who were paying for them to swan about, though I'm sure that type exists; they were ordinary working-class types who went abroad because they simply fancied seeing what somewhere else was like. Brexit has taken that freedom away from the current generation. How can that be a good thing?

 

[Ax^]

See earlier posts.

massive gains in finance services and biotech show me these massive gains

that outstrip the negative effect of Brexit

and this incoming trade deal with the USA oh fuck off that was just around the corner when Boris started this whole mess . trump is going to tug starmers balls until they turn blue just like he did to the cock womble

 

[Rimbaud]

How high are those walls keeping them in the dying towns, and how would you compare the risks of escaping from them with, say, getting out of a war zone, or leaving East Germany back in the day?

Because when I lived on the continent in my 20s, courtesy of a British passport conferring free movement throughout the EU, I met quite a few other British passport holders similarly making use of their freedoms. And they weren't from wealthy families who were paying for them to swan about, though I'm sure that type exists; they were ordinary working-class types who went abroad because they simply fancied seeing what somewhere else was like. Brexit has taken that freedom away from the current generation. How can that be a good thing?

Indeed, my dad worked as a teacher in various schools of former mining towns in the North East, especially County Durham but also Ashington, and used EU funds to organise trips and exchanges around Europe for those kids, for many of whom it was genuinely horizon expanding and life changing.

The idea of it only being rich kids who take gap years in Tuscany who benefited from freedom of movement and EU programms is patronising.

And of course, we all know there is no poverty in remain voting cities such as Glasgow, Belfast, and London.

 

[RD2003]

The liberal left aren't the ones claiming to desire economic and social change.

The fact is that the left does not exist as a decisive political force in this country, and apart from the brief interlude of Corbyn (who never managed to properly control the Labour Party and even if he was elected probably would have been victim to some intrigue or another) has not for a long time.

Leftists who do desire economic and social change but opposed Brexit were simply cheering on liberals who had no interest in economic and social change from a position of powerlessness; but leftists who supported Brexit were cheering on fascists who had interest in economic and social change of a very different sort to what they want, and Brexit was one significant step on the road towards getting it. This was from if anything an even more powerless position, as the chance of Lexiteers influencing the direction of Brexit - whose biggest and most active proponents were the hard right of British politics - was miniscule.

It was obvious from the start that a hypothetical left wing Brexit was never going to happen and that it was a political movement led by the far right. I don't think getting a left wing Brexit is any more credible than getting a left wing EU, and both are impossible while there is no organised left of any note.

That said, socialism in one country is impossible so retreat from transnational organisations without putting any alternative forward is inherently reactionary IMO.

In my experience, liberal lefties do generally claim to desire economic and social change-of the insipid 'for the many' variety, or in the name of 'fairness' etc-and even if they do tend to now prioritise the poison of identity politics. I find it hard to any longer differentiate the supposedly radical left from the liberal left anyway.

While there may be a lot of truth in what you say, I wasn't defending any kind of 'Lexit' notion, the possibility of which I never believed existed. I was merely highlighting the 'fear of the unwashed mob' sense of insecurity that overcame them when their complacency was unexpectedly shaken. It's as if they assume that the kind of society they say they want is possible without having to contemplate the social upheaval necessary for decisive economic and social change, let alone confront the reactionary forces it will inevitably throw up (aside from on X/Twitter). And within those reactionary forces they include all Brexit voters despite it being clear that 'Brexiteers' voted that way for a multitude of reasons, including a largely incoherent dissatisfaction with the outcome of decades of neo-liberal economics.

And so they willingly go scurrying for the protection of their EU overlords who openly stand for the neo-liberal policies and values they say they despise, trapped in a vicious circle which they fail to recognise they help perpetuate.

 

[kabbes]

The liberal left aren't the ones claiming to desire economic and social change.

The fact is that the left does not exist as a decisive political force in this country, and apart from the brief interlude of Corbyn (who never managed to properly control the Labour Party and even if he was elected probably would have been victim to some intrigue or another) has not for a long time.

Leftists who do desire economic and social change but opposed Brexit were simply cheering on liberals who had no interest in economic and social change from a position of powerlessness; but leftists who supported Brexit were cheering on fascists who had interest in economic and social change of a very different sort to what they want, and Brexit was one significant step on the road towards getting it. This was from if anything an even more powerless position, as the chance of Lexiteers influencing the direction of Brexit - whose biggest and most active proponents were the hard right of British politics - was miniscule.

It was obvious from the start that a hypothetical left wing Brexit was never going to happen and that it was a political movement led by the far right. I don't think getting a left wing Brexit is any more credible than getting a left wing EU, and both are impossible while there is no organised left of any note.

That said, socialism in one country is impossible so retreat from transnational organisations without putting any alternative forward is inherently reactionary IMO.

It seems a bit bizarre to object on the one hand to lexit on the grounds that it was unrealistic and then object on the other hand to what actually happened on the grounds that you’d prefer it to be different and that you wish people had different politics. Either we’re trying to imagine a better future that involves changing hearts and minds or we are glumly sticking to historical inevitability. But you have to pick a lane.

 

[Spymaster]

massive gains in finance services and biotech show me these massive gains

Sure.

UK Biotech investment surged to £3.5 billion in 2024
£2.25 billion secured in VC funding in 2024 (up 79%) on 2023
US scientists attracted to the UK (not the EU)
UK now globally number 2 in Fintech after the US

That's from a quick Google of growth in UK Biotech and Fintech. There's shitloads of other stuff. This really isn't controversial.

that outstrip the negative effect of Brexit

Well that's subjective, so we'd have to agree on what they are first, then quantify how negative they are. Tricky, eh?

and this incoming trade deal with the USA oh fuck off that was just around the corner when Boris started this whole mess . trump is going to tug starmers balls until they turn blue just like he did to the cock womble

Quoted for posterity

 

[Rimbaud]

It seems a bit bizarre to object on the one hand to lexit on the grounds that it was unrealistic and then object on the other hand to what actually happened on the grounds that you’d prefer it to be different and that you wish people had different politics. Either we’re trying to imagine a better future that involves changing hearts and minds or we are glumly sticking to historical inevitability. But you have to pick a lane.

Fair enough. Perhaps I'd have made my point better by not indicating a preference for Remain, but grouping together leftists who tended to support Remain with non-leftist liberals who actually shape EU politics seems rather uncharitable.

 

[Dystopiary]

Divide and rule innit. We're still arguing about Brexit while over a fifth of people in Britain live in poverty.

 

[Rimbaud]

Sure.

UK Biotech investment surged to £3.5 billion in 2024
£2.25 billion secured in VC funding in 2024 (up 79%) on 2023
US scientists attracted to the UK (not the EU)
UK now globally number 2 in Fintech after the US

That's from a quick Google of growth in UK Biotech and Fintech. There's shitloads of other stuff. This really isn't controversial.



Well that's subjective, so we'd have to agree on what they are first, then quantify how negative they are. Tricky, eh?



Quoted for posterity

US scientists attracted to the UK rather than other EU countries is surely because of language though, right?

 

[Ax^]

Sure.

UK Biotech investment surged to £3.5 billion in 2024
£2.25 billion secured in VC funding in 2024 (up 79%) on 2023
US scientists attracted to the UK (not the EU)
UK now globally number 2 in Fintech after the US

That's from a quick Google of growth in UK Biotech and Fintech. There's shitloads of other stuff. This really isn't controversial.



Well that's subjective, so we'd have to agree on what they are first, then quantify how negative they are. Tricky, eh?



Quoted for posterity

I'm not wasting my life reading 3 dodgy website link to the bit were they say the growth was generated by Brexit. and fuck the times

and quote what you want for posterity let's us not forget

Boris Johnson: UK 'first in line' for free trade deal with US

UK foreign secretary emerges from meetings with Donald Trump’s aides with positive attitude towards future relationship

www.theguardian.com

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not wasting my life reading 3 dodgy website link to the bit were they say the growth was generated by Brexit

and quote what you want for posterity let's us not forget

Boris Johnson: UK 'first in line' for free trade deal with US

UK foreign secretary emerges from meetings with Donald Trump’s aides with positive attitude towards future relationship

www.theguardian.com

yeh and quite right too, better to just keep reading urban

 

[Yossarian]

So it's the "benefits of Brexit" thread again, but with a title that more accurately describes the contents?

 

[Rimbaud]

And so they willingly go scurrying for the protection of their EU overlords who openly stand for the neo-liberal policies and values they say they despise, trapped in a vicious circle which they fail to recognise they help perpetuate.

It isn't surprising that people on the left choose this side when the loudest advocates of Brexit were the far right, and rhetoric revolved around scapegoating immigrants.

 

[kabbes]

It remains the case as it was in 2016 that the technical details of our trading relationships with the EU are secondary and downstream to ideology. A nation that embraces the notion of free movement of capital, goods and labour could have such arrangements without being part of the EU. A country that desires EU-style legal protections (and their negation) could do so without being part of the EU. We could have exited the EU and arranged deals that maintained all the same structures, if that had been the political will. The argument was thus never really about the details of technical trading arrangements, it was always about hearts and minds. And that’s where the liberal battle was lost, because the remain camp insisted on campaigning about technical trading arrangements whereas the leave camp grounded their arguments in things like mood and feelings.

So now we are where we are. And apparently where we are still comprises a core of individuals that want to carry on relitigating the merits of the details of technical trading arrangements. Fighting battles using methods that already failed, rather than learning from the failure. Instead of trying to work out how to get the best from EU partnership without causing the problems that led so many to reject membership, they want to just carry on telling the rejectors how stupid they were and are.

Let us know how that goes.