a thread for pedants and 'politicos' to pick apart Welsh language

[neprimerimye]

Facts or interpretations ( as in all history ), you may have statistics sayin ghow many miners worked in eash pit e.g. but history apart from that is interpretaion - see any two reports on the sam football match/demo

Besides was facts are certain about the Egyptians, or does history only start in the last two centuries.

Certainly the historical record is open to interpretation but a materialist interpretation, unlike idealist interpretations, is bound to the facts as known. Equally importantly Marxist historical studies ae concerned with the materialist method as well as cold statistics which tell us little of course in isolation from the living class struggle.

There are plenty of known and verifiable facts concerning the Egyptians as my old pal Al Richardson whose hobby it was to translate stylae would have informed you.

 

[neprimerimye]

No offence but you haven't got an original idea in your head Nep. You learnt that from a book and take it as gospel. It's just another rigid systematic theory inappropriately applied to people - one which no doubt suits your self-image. It doesn't take into account the vagaries or complexities of human nature. But worst of all it is incredibly boring. When are you coming down to my area to explain the above to the people so that we can liberate ourselves?

Out of interest is there currently a country on earth which successfully applies your political beliefs?

More and more of topic. Perhaps you ought to begin a new thread? But as you ask direct questions of me it would be churlish not to reply.

In which case I'm, amused that you think that my having studied history and indeed historical materialism n books is somehow suspect. Where else would I have come across such ideas by the way? But while I make no arrogant claims to have developed 'original ideas' of my own, who has pray tell, I have made efforts to understand those ideas as best I can which is the most any of us can do. Which means that it is not taken as gospel but is open to criticism more so than your own false gospels, wherever they be, given that the Marxist method is one that demands self criticism as Korsch noted.

That tyou do not have the slightest comprehension of this method, despite your arrogant dismissal of it, is evidence by your sily remark that it makes no acount of "the vagaries or complexities of human nature." Which remark is doubly wrong in that in the first instance it presumes that human nature is a fixed static thing unchanging regardless of material circumstances which I would suggest is simplistic and very dull indeed. In the second instance it is quite wrong in that Marxism has long maintained that the role of the individual is as a matter of course of incredible importance for any materialist understanding of history. As evidence I mention only the well known, in its day at least, essay of Plekhanov 'The Role of the Individual in History'.

DIY and No.

 

[Gavin Bl]

Who decides what the history, heritage and culture of a country is?

For my part I would like to see the history of Wales taught as the history of the class struggle in this little country. I would like to see the Merthyr Rising, Rebecca, the Chartist movement, the Fed and so forth celebrated. But to do that properly history must be taught from a working class and internationalist perspective.

What I do not want to see is the history of Wales presented as revolving around a bunch of parasitic Princes who oppressed the peasantry, regardless of what language they spoke, and a folkloric vision of an idyllic rural Wales that never existed. Fuck that nationalist shit.

IME, the teachers keenest on the teaching of welsh, were also keenest on the teaching of its radical history. I was taught alot more about the Chartism, Rebecca etc, than I ever was about Owain Glyndwr and so on.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

It is relevant to the thread tho...a thread about the Welsh language boiled down to a world view that's yours.

I maintain that this view takes no account into the majority of peoples feelings, beliefs or sense of their identity...which is one of the most important things with a language....

We all share various identities whether it's UK born Somali, North Walian, Valley boy, punk rocker, punk veggie.....many world views all mixed and interacting.

Your thinking is black and white. One view fits all.

 

[neprimerimye]

IME, the teachers keenest on the teaching of welsh, were also keenest on the teaching of its radical history. I was taught alot more about the Chartism, Rebecca etc, than I ever was about Owain Glyndwr and so on.

Fine and good but there is no direct causal connection between your having been taught a little about popular movements of the past and your having been taught it in Welsh. I can write this with absolute confidance as I too was taught abiout such movements, together with shit loads about various chapels, only in the English language. The fact is that Welsh historiography, even today, is loosely speaking Labourite regarding of language or party affiliation.

 

[neprimerimye]

It is relevant to the thread tho...a thread about the Welsh language boiled down to a world view that's yours.

I maintain that this view takes no account into the majority of peoples feelings, beliefs or sense of their identity...which is one of the most important things with a language....

We all share various identities whether it's UK born Somali, North Walian, Valley boy, punk rocker, punk veggie.....many world views all mixed and interacting.

Your thinking is black and white. One view fits all.

You can maintain what you wll but the fact is that the historical materialist view of history does take into account the attachment of peoples t their languages and/or national/ethnic identities. But in the fianal analyssis, which never arrives mark you, history is determined by the contradiction between the forces and means of production. Given that labour is one such force of production it follows, quite logically, that the feelings and desires (political consciouisness if you like) of the individuals that make up the toiling classes are a material force if acted on by the masses.

While I agree that we all have many different aspects to our indentities, though I fall into none of those you name, these are not of equal weight. It would be silly for example to pretend that an assumed identity as a punk is as important as one national identity regardless of ones views of either punk rock or nationalism. More fundamentally I would sugest that a materialist understanding will indicate that at base the most important aspect that constitutes ones social identity is, in the modern era, that of social class.

 

[Brockway]

More and more of topic. Perhaps you ought to begin a new thread? But as you ask direct questions of me it would be churlish not to reply.

In which case I'm, amused that you think that my having studied history and indeed historical materialism n books is somehow suspect. Where else would I have come across such ideas by the way? But while I make no arrogant claims to have developed 'original ideas' of my own, who has pray tell, I have made efforts to understand those ideas as best I can which is the most any of us can do. Which means that it is not taken as gospel but is open to criticism more so than your own false gospels, wherever they be, given that the Marxist method is one that demands self criticism as Korsch noted.

That tyou do not have the slightest comprehension of this method, despite your arrogant dismissal of it, is evidence by your sily remark that it makes no acount of "the vagaries or complexities of human nature." Which remark is doubly wrong in that in the first instance it presumes that human nature is a fixed static thing unchanging regardless of material circumstances which I would suggest is simplistic and very dull indeed. In the second instance it is quite wrong in that Marxism has long maintained that the role of the individual is as a matter of course of incredible importance for any materialist understanding of history. As evidence I mention only the well known, in its day at least, essay of Plekhanov 'The Role of the Individual in History'.

DIY and No.

You can get ideas from a lot places other than in history books. Like talking to people; or empirical observation.

How can a phrase like "the vagaries or complexities of human nature" be read as human nature being a "fixed static thing" ffs? I'm saying the exact opposite - that human nature is varied and complex and not fixed at all.

'The Role of the Individual in History' - thanks for the tip, good read is it? The truth is Nep you have spent a lot of time and effort studying all that shit and to admit that it's just another bullshit catch-all system would mean the collapse of your entire life.

And what about the psychology of why you believe in Marxism and not say Buddhism? Don't you think that upbringing, for instance, has any effect on political viewpoints and belief systems? If you had been say the son of a shopkeeper in Cheltenham you would think that Marxism was bollocks. So why the absolute certainty now that you are right - isn't that just terrible egocentricity and borderline megalomania?

It's a shame no country on earth successfully applies your political beliefs we could have had a whip-round to send you there.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

There are plenty of known and verifiable facts concerning the Egyptians as my old pal Al Richardson whose hobby it was to translate stylae would have informed you.

written by who ?

The victors no doubt

 

[neprimerimye]

You can get ideas from a lot places other than in history books. Like talking to people; or empirical observation.

How can a phrase like "the vagaries or complexities of human nature" be read as human nature being a "fixed static thing" ffs? I'm saying the exact opposite - that human nature is varied and complex and not fixed at all.

'The Role of the Individual in History' - thanks for the tip, good read is it? The truth is Nep you have spent a lot of time and effort studying all that shit and to admit that it's just another bullshit catch-all system would mean the collapse of your entire life.

And what about the psychology of why you believe in Marxism and not say Buddhism? Don't you think that upbringing, for instance, has any effect on political viewpoints and belief systems? If you had been say the son of a shopkeeper in Cheltenham you would think that Marxism was bollocks. So why the absolute certainty now that you are right - isn't that just terrible egocentricity and borderline megalomania?

It's a shame no country on earth successfully applies your political beliefs we could have had a whip-round to send you there.

Certainly you can get ideas from many different sources. The point is how and why do those ideas originate. Given which I prefer to take ideas on, for sake of example, the origin of the species from Darwin and Gould than from the Bible or Quran. And certainly not from some numbskull in a pub or empircal observation which will yield nothing of value on its own.

In view of your latest remarks and your failure to actually take on board and counter the arguments I have ut to you I cannot but conclude that you are some kind of enthusiast for pomo. In which case you will indeed know a lot about shite as that is all that idiotic doctrine consists of.

Which opinion is born out by your final impotent salvo which actually suggests that the Marxist conception of material being determining social consciousness is correct. Not that you realised that when writing it no doubt. But then you also write that of my alleged "absolute certainty now that you are right" which is utter nonsense and refuted by my previous post which indicated that Marxism is first of all a critical theory.

Feel free to have a whip round for me mind.

 

[bonheddwr]

Llantwit, you've been changing your story from your first post. You started by saying that a New Welsh Language Act had been passed and meant that ALL schools would now become bilingual! Is anyone really supposed to take you seriously after that? You are now back-tracking BIG TIME!

There is only a small refernce in the 'Foundation Phase 3-7 Years' document to do with 'bilingualism' which states:

"the Foundation Phase will bring a requirement for all English medium schools to provide children with more opportunities to learn and enjoy using the Welsh language through daily access to appropriate Welsh medium play based activities"

You've obviously got a massive chip on your shoulder, you've made things up as you go along to try and strengthen your argyment, but have been caught out.

All schools in Wales SHOULD be bilingual, so that the children of ignorant parents are not deprived the right of speaking both of Wales' national languages. But this is not the case at present, so don't worry, the nasty Welshies won't get your children... jus yet!

 

[Brockway]

Feel free to have a whip round for me mind.

You should be exiled to Flat Holm until you pass your Welsh GCSE. Then, and only then, should you be allowed back on the mainland. The same goes for that other dangerous radical Llantwit.

 

[neprimerimye]

You should be exiled to Flat Holm until you pass your Welsh GCSE. Then, and only then, should you be allowed back on the mainland. The same goes for that other dangerous radical Llantwit.

So no whip round and no rational argument........

At a push I reckon I could swim back from Flat Holm.

 

[neprimerimye]

All schools in Wales SHOULD be bilingual, so that the children of ignorant parents are not deprived the right of speaking both of Wales' national languages. But this is not the case at present, so don't worry, the nasty Welshies won't get your children... jus yet!

Llantwit, if I understand him correctly, as Welsh as you soft lad.

Now getting back to the question why should all schools in Wales be bilingual? Cos you want them to be? Not much of an argument.

Face facts national languages simply cannot compete, and compete they must, with languages of world status. And in a country where one of the two competing languages is also a world language the simple fact is that even should they have the ability to use the other language most people for whom the world status language is also their mother tongue wil always chose to use that first in any and al concievable situations.

In other words without state backing and support the smaller language will not be used even if people have the ability to use it. And attempts to persuade anglophones to do so will not, in the long run, make any difference.

That said as an imperiled minority language Welsh should receive state support to a degree disproportionate, over and above, its base precisely because that is the only way to guarantee the rights of those who speak it. But not at the expense of anglophone Welsh people to speak our language in our country.

 

[Gentleman Taff]

Arise ye workers from your slumbers
Arise ye prisoners of want
For reason in revolt now thunders
And at last ends the age of cant.
Away with all your superstitions
Servile masses arise, arise
We'll change henceforth the old tradition
And spurn the dust to win the prize.

Refrain:
So comrades, come rally
And the last fight let us face
The Internationale unites the human race.

No more deluded by reaction
On tyrants only we'll make war
The soldiers too will take strike action
They'll break ranks and fight no more
And if those cannibals keep trying
To sacrifice us to their pride
They soon shall hear the bullets flying
We'll shoot the generals on our own side.

No saviour from on high delivers
No faith have we in prince or peer
Our own right hand the chains must shiver
Chains of hatred, greed and fear
E'er the thieves will out with their booty
And give to all a happier lot.
Each at the forge must do their duty
And we'll strike while the iron is hot

Fucking cultural imperialist

 

[llantwit]

Fuck you Bonheddwr - if I've got a chip on my shoulder it's about fundy cunts like you who want to impose a minority language on everyone in Wales irrespective of what they want. That chip I'm proud to have. Twat.

Llantwit, you've been changing your story from your first post. You started by saying that a New Welsh Language Act had been passed and meant that ALL schools would now become bilingual! Is anyone really supposed to take you seriously after that? You are now back-tracking BIG TIME!

There is only a small refernce in the 'Foundation Phase 3-7 Years' document to do with 'bilingualism' which states:

"the Foundation Phase will bring a requirement for all English medium schools to provide children with more opportunities to learn and enjoy using the Welsh language through daily access to appropriate Welsh medium play based activities"

You've obviously got a massive chip on your shoulder, you've made things up as you go along to try and strengthen your argyment, but have been caught out.

All schools in Wales SHOULD be bilingual, so that the children of ignorant parents are not deprived the right of speaking both of Wales' national languages. But this is not the case at present, so don't worry, the nasty Welshies won't get your children... jus yet!

 

[Gavin Bl]

Fine and good but there is no direct causal connection between your having been taught a little about popular movements of the past and your having been taught it in Welsh. I can write this with absolute confidance as I too was taught abiout such movements, together with shit loads about various chapels, only in the English language. The fact is that Welsh historiography, even today, is loosely speaking Labourite regarding of language or party affiliation.

Who said I was taught it in Welsh? I was taught in English. My point was that there was not a separation you implied in your post, between English speaking socialists who wanted to teach 1831 and all that, and Welsh speakers who wanted to teach about Glyndwr. Very often the ones most pro-Welsh were the also the ones most pro-radical history.

Despite mistrust of welsh speakers in parts of south wales, nationalism and socialism are welded together quite strongly in many valleys' peoples view - and as there is a greater embracing of the language in the valleys, that is likely to increase.

There are undoubtedly fault lines in there, as there always is with left-wing nationalism, but that doesn't mean it isn't a very widely-held view or that it can't be a vehicle for progressive change.

 

[neprimerimye]

Who said I was taught it in Welsh? I was taught in English. My point was that there was not a separation you implied in your post, between English speaking socialists who wanted to teach 1831 and all that, and Welsh speakers who wanted to teach about Glyndwr. Very often the ones most pro-Welsh were the also the ones most pro-radical history.

Despite mistrust of welsh speakers in parts of south wales, nationalism and socialism are welded together quite strongly in many valleys' peoples view - and as there is a greater embracing of the language in the valleys, that is likely to increase.

There are undoubtedly fault lines in there, as there always is with left-wing nationalism, but that doesn't mean it isn't a very widely-held view or that it can't be a vehicle for progressive change.

In point of fact I implied nothing of the kind. In fact I pointed out that Anglophone teachers taught the same interpretation of Welsh history for the same reason ie the hegemony of the labourite/populist tradition over Welsh historiography. But it is labourite, laterly populist, interpretation of history and not openly socialist. That is important to realise I believe.

However I agree with your cmment that there is a convergence of what remains of labourite ideology, the Welsh language and Welsh nationalism in the valleys region. And I wrote labourism because that is what itis not socialism. Such a convergence should not be overestimated however and the allegiance of many people to the Labour Party remains, more or less intact, and the tide of nationalism/welsh language is not as strong as you hope I suspect. Moreover this is overall a declining region which has an aging population base. It weight in Wales as a whole is then likely to diminish in the long run just as much as the Barry-Cardiff-Newport belt is likely to increase in importance.

But this is far off discussing the Welsh language now is it not? So i'll end this post by laughing at your absurd suggestion that very soft left nationalism, tied to a party that is essentially bourgeois such as Plaid Cymru, can ever be a practical vehicle for either socialism or a Welsh state.

 

[Karac]

But this is far off discussing the Welsh language now is it not? So i'll end this post by laughing at your absurd suggestion that very soft left nationalism, tied to a party that is essentially bourgeois such as Plaid Cymru, can ever be a practical vehicle for either socialism or a Welsh state.

Unlike the mass based Neprimimye Party centered around an OAP College Lecturer who was previously a long standing member of Militant,until he was flirty fished by the swoppies-and then kicked out for being too sectarian (a major achievement)

 

[bonheddwr]

Fuck you Bonheddwr - if I've got a chip on my shoulder it's about fundy cunts like you who want to impose a minority language on everyone in Wales irrespective of what they want. That chip I'm proud to have. Twat.

Cool heads Twit.

It's not about imposing, it's about giving every child in Wales the ability, the opportunity and the right to use Welsh IF THEY WANT TO!

Now, you haven't given any coherent argument as to why teaching our children in Wales bilingually would be detrimental to their education. You just want the right not to have a bilingual child.

It's obvious that you have a chip on your shoulder, but you will not explain why? Were you told off in Welsh class for mispronouncing a Welsh word?

 

[neprimerimye]

Unlike the mass based Neprimimye Party centered around an OAP College Lecturer who was previously a long standing member of Militant,until he was flirty fished by the swoppies-and then kicked out for being too sectarian (a major achievement)

I'm fairly sure that I have never been either a member of the RSL or a college lecturer and have not a sectarian bone in my body.

 

[neprimerimye]

It's not about imposing, it's about giving every child in Wales the ability, the opportunity and the right to use Welsh IF THEY WANT TO!

Now, you haven't given any coherent argument as to why teaching our children in Wales bilingually would be detrimental to their education. You just want the right not to have a bilingual child.

In what sense are any Llantwits children 'ours'?

Moreover as he has pointed out a number of times his children are being brought up in a bilingual household.

You just want the right to impose your language on a majority, who if their non-use of it is any proof, have no interest in your language.

 

[ddraig]

point of order!

llantwit does not have any kids!

<leaves fresh buns for throwers>

 

[neprimerimye]

llantwit does not have any kids!

<leaves fresh buns for throwers>

This is the net we aren't dealing with reality but hypotheses.

Not that nationalism, in either political or linguistic forms, ever deals with reality come to that.

 

[Gavin Bl]

In point of fact I implied nothing of the kind.

You clearly assumed that I was taught in welsh - as you stated below...

Fine and good but there is no direct causal connection between your having been taught a little about popular movements of the past and your having been taught it in Welsh. I can write this with absolute confidance as I too was taught abiout such movements, together with shit loads about various chapels, only in the English language

my dreadful attempts a writing welsh on 'Siarad Cymraeg Siarad Cymraeg' should amply demonstrate that I wasn't taught in it.

my point about left-wing nationalism was that it is a widely held view, and and can provide the basis for progressive change, I don't recall mentioning establishing states, or what you would call socialism, as opposed to Labourism. Its where most people are at.

 

[Gavin Bl]

.

 

[neprimerimye]

You clearly assumed that I was taught in welsh - as you stated below...

my dreadful attempts a writing welsh on 'Siarad Cymraeg Siarad Cymraeg' should amply demonstrate that I wasn't taught in it.

my point about left-wing nationalism was that it is a widely held view, and and can provide the basis for progressive change, I don't recall mentioning establishing states, or what you would call socialism, as opposed to Labourism. Its where most people are at.

Yes i did but my comment with regard to yur drawing a false implication did not refer to that. it went to your cmment re the labourite/populist interpretation of Welsh history. That wasn't clear I'm afraid so my apologies on that score.

So called left-wing nationalism may be a widely held view but it is a minority view and seems in current circumstances unlikely to expand out of its current area of influence. As such it seems unlikely to be a vehicle for progressive change in Welsh society as a whole.

In any case most people in Wales do not agree with left-wing (Welsh) nationalism but support the denatured labourism that is hegemonic even today in this country. Regardless of what party they vote for it seems in that even Tory voters support the NHS and other institutions critical to the degenerate labourite concensus that we are stuck with for the foreseeable future.