a thread for pedants and 'politicos' to pick apart Welsh language
- Thread starter ddraig
- Start date
Is that a piss-take?chilango said:
Are you suggesting I should pay? I
'm already paying for massive expansion in Welsh medium teaching through my taxes, btw.
And I have a strong feeling I'm not in the minority, too. It's just that recent changes in policy haven't been widely publicised.
llantwit said:
1, Do you think that your child's English language skills would be worse in a bilingual (Welsh-English) school?
2, Do you think that your child's German language skills would be worse in a bilingual (Welsh-English) school?
If NO is the answer to the questions above, your child will be just as skilled in English and German if they go to a Welsh medium school or not, it's just that if they go to a Welsh medium school, they'd have Welsh language skills as well. Not instead of, but as well.
So why are you opposed to giving your children the opportunity to speak one of their native languages again?
Regarding Welsh history, culture etc. My father was a learner, his family came from London. I can only take his word on the matter, but he stated that he understood Welsh culture and history much better after learning Welsh. From simple things like the names of places, and the history behind the name to the chance to read ancient Welsh poetry from the 6th century, which is still similar enough to modern Welsh to be read today.
What does Llantwit Major mean? Well Llan is a Welsh word for Church (although Eglwys is used more today) I haven't got a clue what TWIT stands for (other than the obvious English meaning, which is stupid), and major is obvious. Llanilltud Fawr on the other hand is easy.
llan = Church
Illtud = A Welsh saint, and founder of Llanilltud Fawr
mawr = great/large/big
The connection between the language, and Welsh history is massive.
bonheddwr said:
I'm from Llantwit Fardre - Llanilltyd Faerdref.
And I know what it means without being a fluent Welsh speaker.
Like I keep saying - the issue isn't about the merits of Welsh, or the merits of bilingualism for me.
It's about having the CHOICE to decide what languages my kids are educated in, and not having a language that has no connection with me or my family foisted upon them.
That's a pretty fundamental right that I had up until pretty recently.
It's fine and dandy if you want to learn Welsh or your kids to learn Welsh. I respect your right to that kind of education. Why can't my right (as an english speaker in a predominantly english speaking country) be respected equally?
"So the statistic you have quoted is something you heard on the radio? Given that I've never heard or seen a similar statistic anywhere else i cannot but conclude that you misheard something.Indeed you play rather loose with facts again when you assert that China has three languages. In fact it has dozens of languages. Although Han Chinese is spoken by the vast majority and the ruling class hae had a long standing policy of forcing it on minority groups.
Again you assert that 75% of the worlds populations are bilingual. And then use this as an argument for a fully bilingual education system in Wales. But the fact is that with not a single exception people only speak one language at a time. Very few peope being equally 'at home' in more than one language. There is no good reason to assume that people in Wales would break with this universal pattern and why should they?
Your vision of Wales as bilingual - begging the question of which language individuals will choose to speak to other individuals given a free choice - is utopian. Languages are no more equal than individuals. Certainly individuals should have equal rights and opportunities but it is crazy to believe that they are equal in every way. Similarly languages are not equal and even if by some magic everybody in Wales was able to speak both languages we would still live in a world in which Welsh is a minority language and English a world language spoken by hundreds of millions.
At most by boosting the number of Welsh speakers you would be boosting the market for Welsh medium cultural products. Assuming, an unwarranted asumption in my opnion, that people would choose such products over their English medum rivals in the market. In no other way would you be boosting Welsh culture, whatever that means, given that popular culture everywhere is increasing international - which in reality all too often means Anglo-Amercian of course - based on the bourgeois values of this society. Viewed in this way what is specifically Welsh about People of the Valley that differntiates it as such from Coronation Street or Manuredale?
To conclude we live in a society in which a world culture exists and i the tendencies towards it sfurther development are massive. Some such endencies are deplorable in my opinion and others very positive. But the development of such a culture and the sheer impossiblity for any national or minority language culture, 'Welsh culture' would of course be both, is clear for all to see. Your vision of a vibrant Welsh language based cuture in all parts of Wales is as utopian and socially reactionary as say the vision of Wales held by Saunders Lewis that we would all return to an agricultural Roman Catholc Wales.
Face facts Wales has two languages that are unequal. More state aid must be given to the minority culture as its speakers must also fight the market in order to prerserve and develop their language. But it is their language not ours thank you very much."
by NEP
Again you assert that 75% of the worlds populations are bilingual. And then use this as an argument for a fully bilingual education system in Wales. But the fact is that with not a single exception people only speak one language at a time. Very few peope being equally 'at home' in more than one language. There is no good reason to assume that people in Wales would break with this universal pattern and why should they?
Your vision of Wales as bilingual - begging the question of which language individuals will choose to speak to other individuals given a free choice - is utopian. Languages are no more equal than individuals. Certainly individuals should have equal rights and opportunities but it is crazy to believe that they are equal in every way. Similarly languages are not equal and even if by some magic everybody in Wales was able to speak both languages we would still live in a world in which Welsh is a minority language and English a world language spoken by hundreds of millions.
At most by boosting the number of Welsh speakers you would be boosting the market for Welsh medium cultural products. Assuming, an unwarranted asumption in my opnion, that people would choose such products over their English medum rivals in the market. In no other way would you be boosting Welsh culture, whatever that means, given that popular culture everywhere is increasing international - which in reality all too often means Anglo-Amercian of course - based on the bourgeois values of this society. Viewed in this way what is specifically Welsh about People of the Valley that differntiates it as such from Coronation Street or Manuredale?
To conclude we live in a society in which a world culture exists and i the tendencies towards it sfurther development are massive. Some such endencies are deplorable in my opinion and others very positive. But the development of such a culture and the sheer impossiblity for any national or minority language culture, 'Welsh culture' would of course be both, is clear for all to see. Your vision of a vibrant Welsh language based cuture in all parts of Wales is as utopian and socially reactionary as say the vision of Wales held by Saunders Lewis that we would all return to an agricultural Roman Catholc Wales.
Face facts Wales has two languages that are unequal. More state aid must be given to the minority culture as its speakers must also fight the market in order to prerserve and develop their language. But it is their language not ours thank you very much."
by NEP
Brockway said:
Yes I heard that statistic on the radio. No, I didn't mishear it. Send your complaint to Bush House and stop infering that I made it up - you cheeky git.
I didn't "assert" that China has 3 languages - I said "I think" it has 3 languages which was in response to your assertion that it is mostly monoglot. You now seem to have acquired a vast wealth of knowledge about linguistics in that area of the world. But thanks for the info that China has dozens of languages - I'm sure at least some of the population are bilingual don't you, probably in their local tongue and the official language of the area (hmmm... sounds familiar).
I'm not using the 75% statistic to argue for a bilingual education system in Wales (although I believe in one). I'm just pointing out that learning another language isn't that uncommon, in fact it's the norm in large parts of the world.
Yes English is a more influential language than Welsh. It's more influential than Icelandic too which is why they learn both. Ditto Dutch, Danish etc etc. Because English is more dominant and influential as a world language do you think these peoples should give up their native tongue and only speak culturally dominant English? Me neither.
Culture isn't measured in "cultural products" - culture is everything from discussing Pirates of the Caribbean in Welsh, to having a cup of coffee in an Italian cafe in Merthyr.
No, my vision of a vibrant bilingual Welsh culture in all parts of Wales is not Utopian it's perfectly achievable - and in a relatively short space of time with proper planning. Your comparison to Saunders Lewis is hilarious btw and nowhere near my personal politics. My vision of a bilingual Welsh culture is not reactionary either - it's liberating and inclusive.
And what does "it is their language not ours mean"? Who are you speaking on behalf of now? Don't tell me what my language is Nep. Like I said before - English is the language I speak but it's NOT my language.
llantwit said:
I'm afraid that SHOULDN'T be your fundamental right. Wales is a bilingual country, and therefore in my view, every child SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT to learn Welsh, and then its up to them to speak it whenever they wish.
If you could prove that teaching your child to be fluent in Welsh would be negative in educational terms, then maybe you would have a point. But you cannot, as all research points to bilingual schools achieveing higher grades in all subjects - including English!
You just don't want your child to be a fluent Welsh speaker. You do not give any reasons for this. I may not want my child to learn maths, but tough luck. If its on the curricilum my child would have to learn it.
If the situation did arise (and I doubt it very much in our lifetime) where all schools in Wales were bilingual, you could always send your child to a private school. Where do you live by the way? If you really want to keep your child away from the Welsh language, and you live near the border, you could always send him/her to a school in England.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
bonheddwr
you've quoted selectively and contradicted yourself in that post and are still coming over a bit ott in my opinion, which is uneeded. nowhere has llantwit said he wants to keep his children away from the Welsh language just, afaics, that he slightly resents the possible compulsaryness of it.
and generally if/when you start SHOUTING the odds and what peoples rights should be, people tend to stop listening.
dere m'lan nawr, dydi hon dim y ffordd ydw e?
you've quoted selectively and contradicted yourself in that post and are still coming over a bit ott in my opinion, which is uneeded. nowhere has llantwit said he wants to keep his children away from the Welsh language just, afaics, that he slightly resents the possible compulsaryness of it.
and generally if/when you start SHOUTING the odds and what peoples rights should be, people tend to stop listening.
dere m'lan nawr, dydi hon dim y ffordd ydw e?
ddraig said:bonheddwr
you've quoted selectively and contradicted yourself in that post and are still coming over a bit ott in my opinion, which is uneeded. nowhere has llantwit said he wants to keep his children away from the Welsh language just, afaics, that he slightly resents the possible compulsaryness of it.
and generally if/when you start SHOUTING the odds and what peoples rights should be, people tend to stop listening.
dere m'lan nawr, dydi hon dim y ffordd ydw e?
Where is the contradiction? And yes, I do agree, I need to stop SHOUTING.
But I alreay AM there - gotta problem with place of abode?Brockway said:Bonheddwr hasn't said anything OTT or out of order Ddraig. It's llantwit who's out of order for inventing children. He's a fantasisit, a Walter Mitty character. He should be in Whitchurch mental hospital.
Hmm... true colours, anyone? Nutter.bonheddwr said:
Yes, I agree. There should be enough Welsh medium schools for everyone who wants their children to be educated in the medium of welsh.bonheddwr said:
Look, this has nothing to do with my argument - which is about parental freedom. No, I'm not convinced of the merits of a welsh/english bilingual education - But, and for the last time: this. is. not. my. point.bonheddwr said:
Yes, you're right on the first point. Not on the 2nd - there are plenty of reasons - but that's not what I'm arguing principally here.bonheddwr said:
And the maths thing is a red herring - I don't mind my kids learning Welsh in school - as I've said many times on this thread and others... I do mind a substantial portion of their education being delivered in the medium of Welsh (for reasons - read the thread).
bonheddwr said:
I was wondering how long it would take before you lost it and started getting abusive, authoritarian, and telling me to send my kids to school in England.
So predictable.
I've meade my points pretty clearly a number of times on this thread already - and you've not engaged with them at all, so we'd better just leave it there. I'm not gonna repeat myself ad nauseum for your dimwitted benefit.
Fucking Welsh Taleban.
Ben Bore
Member
I understand your point llantwit about parental freedom 100%, but I don't don't understand why your so aginst your children being bilingual ( you say it's stated within this thread somewhere, so I'll have to re-read it)
I have to disagree with you on some points:
You say that you can understand Welsh history just as well in English, I don't think this is the case. They say history is written by the victor, so if you can only source information written in English, you're restricting yourself to a certain viewpoint. Granted, not everybody is that bothered about history. But the same applies to poetry and music, both of which played/plays a large part in Welsh history and culture.
You say you'r not happy with the amounts of money spent on Welsh medium education from your taxes. Well I pay for English medium education from my taxes. Some families (as you've pointed out) have to send their kids to Engish medium schools even though they want their children to a Welsh medium one. This is a situation where parental choice is severly restricted.
(I'm not holding you directly responsible for the lach of Welsh medium school by the way - yet )
Also you have nothing against a bilingual Wales, yet you don't want your children speaking Welsh. How can a counrty be bilingual if half the population (or 75-80% can't/won't speak one of the languages). If some parents in Wales decided to go out of their way not to teach their children English, I bet they'd be prosecuted.
Anyway, I'm off to my cave now to wait for the airstrikes to stop
I have to disagree with you on some points:
You say that you can understand Welsh history just as well in English, I don't think this is the case. They say history is written by the victor, so if you can only source information written in English, you're restricting yourself to a certain viewpoint. Granted, not everybody is that bothered about history. But the same applies to poetry and music, both of which played/plays a large part in Welsh history and culture.
You say you'r not happy with the amounts of money spent on Welsh medium education from your taxes. Well I pay for English medium education from my taxes. Some families (as you've pointed out) have to send their kids to Engish medium schools even though they want their children to a Welsh medium one. This is a situation where parental choice is severly restricted.
(I'm not holding you directly responsible for the lach of Welsh medium school by the way - yet
)Also you have nothing against a bilingual Wales, yet you don't want your children speaking Welsh. How can a counrty be bilingual if half the population (or 75-80% can't/won't speak one of the languages). If some parents in Wales decided to go out of their way not to teach their children English, I bet they'd be prosecuted.
Anyway, I'm off to my cave now to wait for the airstrikes to stop
Ben Bore said:I understand your point llantwit about parental freedom 100%, but I don't don't understand why your so aginst your children being bilingual ( you say it's stated within this thread somewhere, so I'll have to re-read it)
I have to disagree with you on some points:
You say that you can understand Welsh history just as well in English, I don't think this is the case. They say history is written by the victor, so if you can only source information written in English, you're restricting yourself to a certain viewpoint. Granted, not everybody is that bothered about history. But the same applies to poetry and music, both of which played/plays a large part in Welsh history and culture.
You say you'r not happy with the amounts of money spent on Welsh medium education from your taxes. Well I pay for English medium education from my taxes. Some families (as you've pointed out) have to send their kids to Engish medium schools even though they want their children to a Welsh medium one. This is a situation where parental choice is severly restricted.
(I'm not holding you directly responsible for the lach of Welsh medium school by the way - yet
Also you have nothing against a bilingual Wales, yet you don't want your children speaking Welsh. How can a counrty be bilingual if half the population (or 75-80% can't/won't speak one of the languages). If some parents in Wales decided to go out of their way not to teach their children English, I bet they'd be prosecuted.
Anyway, I'm off to my cave now to wait for the airstrikes to stop
I'm not being rude - I've been doing this for more than a day now - sorry you weren't in from the beginning to have the debate... but I really gotta have a bit of a break now.
In short:
I'm not happy with a universal bilingual education for all - that's the bottom line. I feel it's coming given recent changes in education policy, and I feel there hasn't been a full and proper public debate about it. I feel that a lot of anglos would share my views (as well as a lot of immigrants from non-english (or welsh
) speaking countries) if they knew of the changes that had been, are being made to the ed. system.Any amount of trying to persuade me of the benefits of making everyone learn through the medium of Weslh as well as English is beside the point I'm trying to argue.
Quite - but the way to increase use of a language is not to enforce it from above. It's wrong, I think. But equally important, it won't work cos people won't like it.
I do take your point about history and culture (and I know about history - I'm a historian by trade) - to an extent - but it's not really relevant to what I'm arguing. To be honest, I'm a bit tired of the argument at the moment - but I'd like to come back to it some day.
OK, just one more point - as you saw, I made this point myself a few posts up. And As I said before - more Welsh schools (enough to cover demand) would be great - as long as the choice existed to not send my kids there, I don't mind paying for it out of my taxes at all, so please don't think I begrudge paying for the development ofWelsh. As I've said over and over on here, I don't.You say you'r not happy with the amounts of money spent on Welsh medium education from your taxes. Well I pay for English medium education from my taxes. Some families (as you've pointed out) have to send their kids to Engish medium schools even though they want their children to a Welsh medium one. This is a situation where parental choice is severly restricted.
(I'm not holding you directly responsible for the lach of Welsh medium school by the way - yet
What I do feel a bit worried about is the vehemence with which some people seem to want to stamp out debate with anger and abuse. Obviously not you Ben - you've been really measured and cool. But I've experienced it before, and I've been told on many occasions that I'm not really welsh because of my feelings about the language (we've also seen it to an extent in the letters pages of the WM this week, I think). It's just absurd and annoying, and it doesn't do the language lobby any favours at all when certain sections of itcome accross like foaming nutters, and pseudo-religious zealots.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
seconded, but then there's always gonna be crachach/young passionate/slightly misguided types where language and nations are involved.llantwit said:
i've had to check myself in the past and have mellowed (a bit) with age.
anyone who tells you you're not really welsh are wrong and has lost the argument really.
Ben Bore
Member
Anyone who thinks anyone is less Welsh because they don't speak Welsh is obviously a loon. I do know that a tiny fraction o Welsh speakers hold that view, sadly they are the only ones who can be arsed to write the Western Mail, which makes all Welsh speakers look bad/mad.
I honestly do belive that Welsh only education will not be introduced in our lifetimes or that of our children, but if it was, there should be an open an honest debate about it. Personally I'd be in favour of it, if that makes me seem like a crazy extremist, then so be it.
I honestly do belive that Welsh only education will not be introduced in our lifetimes or that of our children, but if it was, there should be an open an honest debate about it. Personally I'd be in favour of it, if that makes me seem like a crazy extremist, then so be it.
I don't think it does at all (make you look like a crazy extremist) - it just means that we differ in opinion. That's fine.Ben Bore said:
But on the othr point - if you look at recent education legisation (referenced earlier) universal bilingual education is already being introduced - and I think without any kind of adequate public debate.
