a thread for pedants and 'politicos' to pick apart Welsh language

[editor]

Why not make them trilingual?

Although I'm the first to admit that Welsh isn't exactly a vital world language, there seems to be enough documented evidence that kids taught in the medium of Welsh do tend to do better than monoglot speakers.

Those arguing that the second language should be something other than Welsh are missing the point: if you're being taught Welsh in Wales there's more to it than just another language - by learning the ancient language of the land you can understand more about the history and culture of the country - and make sense of road signs!

Being taught Spanish in, for example, Llandrindod Wells simply doesn't have the same cultural resonance and would perhaps make pupils less inclined to follow it through - but once a kid has two languages under their belt, learning more is a lot easier.

 

[ddraig]

Although I'm the first to admit that Welsh isn't exactly a vital world language, there seems to be enough documented evidence that kids taught in the medium of Welsh do tend to do better than monoglot speakers.

Those arguing that the second language should be something other than Welsh are missing the point: if you're being taught Welsh in Wales there's more to it than just another language - by learning the ancient language of the land you can understand more about the history and culture of the country - and make sense of road signs!

Being taught Spanish in, for example, Llandrindod Wells simply doesn't have the same cultural resonance and would perhaps make pupils less inclined to follow it through - but once a kid has two languages under their belt, learning more is a lot easier.

very good point and one i've been trying to get my brain to formulate since all this kicked off, ta.

 

[llantwit]

Although I'm the first to admit that Welsh isn't exactly a vital world language, there seems to be enough documented evidence that kids taught in the medium of Welsh do tend to do better than monoglot speakers.

Those arguing that the second language should be something other than Welsh are missing the point: if you're being taught Welsh in Wales there's more to it than just another language - by learning the ancient language of the land you can understand more about the history and culture of the country - and make sense of road signs!

Being taught Spanish in, for example, Llandrindod Wells simply doesn't have the same cultural resonance and would perhaps make pupils less inclined to follow it through - but once a kid has two languages under their belt, learning more is a lot easier.

Like I've said before - I totally buy the bilingualism argument. That's fine. Also - my championing of German as my future kids' other language is cos it's gonna be their mother tongue, like. Very specific to my situation.

BUT, I do think that people not having a choice about whether they're kids are gonna be educated half through the medium of Welsh sucks big huge ass.

I allso take your point about the value of Welsh - I agree, to an extent. But for me - this whole debate isn't about the value of Welsh as a language. It's about compulsory bilingual education.

It's not my language, and I don't like the fact that I might well not have a choice in future about my kids being taught in it in school because of the will of a minority in my own country.

 

[editor]

It's not my language, and I don't like the fact that I might well not have a choice in future about my kids being taught in it in school because of the will of a minority in my own country.

But it's the native language of the country, so why shouldn't people who live there be encouraged to learn it?

Learning Welsh gives kids a better understanding of the history, heritage and culture of their country. It helps them make sense of modern Wales.

What's wrong with that?

 

[llantwit]

But Learning Welsh gives kids a better understanding of the history, heritage and culture of their country. It helps them make sense of modern Wales.

First, I'm just not convinced by that. I understand my country's history, heritage, and culture really well (including the rather nasty suppression of the welsh language), and I don't speak it.

But - for the umpteenth time, I've got nothing against kids learning Welsh. I just don't want half of my kids' education delivered to them through the medium of Welsh.


Also, on a separate point... I'm not convinced of the merits of spending huge amounts of public money ressurecting the language, and making it compulsory for all to do their learning through the language.
That money could be better spent elswhere.

 

[llantwit]

But it's the native language of the country, so why shouldn't people who live there be encouraged to learn it?

I'm not even against people being encouraged to learn it. Opposing that would be pointless and mean-spirited. What I'm against is not giving people the option to be educated through the medium of English only. Which is where we're headed.

 

[editor]

What I'm against is not giving people the option to be educated through the medium of English only. Which is where we're headed.

So you don't think people should be taught the language of the land that they choose to live in?

 

[editor]

But - for the umpteenth time, I've got nothing against kids learning Welsh. I just don't want half of my kids' education delivered to them through the medium of Welsh.

Seeing as it's likely to give them a better education, a better understanding of their culture, heritage and locality as well as improved skills for learning other languages, I can't see why you're so bothered.

 

[munkeeunit]

I'm such a pedant when it comes to the welsh language that I can't even begin to pull it apart even if I wanted to for a laugh. I'd just have a couple of dum and stupid comments to make, which would make me look like such a low grade of dimwitted pedant that I won't even bother to embarass myself.

 

[llantwit]

So you don't think people should be taught the language of the land that they choose to live in?

Come on... we don't choose where we're born, do we, and not many of us really get to choose which country we live in. But more to the point, the language of the country I live in is English - some others who live here also speak Welsh. That's great.
I should add that I'm (relatively) happy here... I'm just unhappy with this rather new turn in the thinking behind state education policy in Wales, that's all.

 

[editor]

But more to the point, the language of the country I live in is English - some others who live here also speak Welsh.

Actually, the language of the country you live in was - for many, many hundreds of years - Welsh and that was only changed as a result of England forcing English on the population.

 

[llantwit]

Seeing as it's likely to give them a better education, a better understanding of their culture, heritage and locality as well as improved skills for learning other languages, I can't see why you're so bothered.

Yeah, well, like I said, I don't agree with you on that one - people can get a rich understanding of Welsh culture, history, and whatnot, even if they don't speak Welsh.
I'm bothered because a fundamental change in the way our children are educated is being introduced through the back door without any proper public debate.

 

[llantwit]

Actually, the language of the country you live in was - for many, many hundreds of years - Welsh.

No shit.
Doesn't change my experience growing up speaking English as a third generation non-welsh speaker though, does it?

 

[editor]

Doesn't change my experience growing up speaking English as a third generation non-welsh speaker though, does it?

Sure - but I don't understand why you're so against your kids being taught in the native language of their own country -especially when there's clear educational benefits to them learning the language.

 

[Belushi]

I don't agree with llantwit but I see where he's coming from - he doesn't want to risk his kids turning into Gogs

 

[munkeeunit]

Very similar situation in Ireland with this one. As far as I understand it both languages were stamped out by force, and still just within living memory. That still makes it a live issue doesn't it?

Third generation is still within spitting distance of those who experienced first hand what it was like to have a language nearly snuffed out by force. That gives it far more of an edge as an issue than the idea of resurrecting a language which fizzled out more of it's own accord, as they also do.

But as 3rd generation Irish, who has always lived in the U.K, I don't feel fully able to give a definitive opinion on either really.

 

[llantwit]

Because I'm not convinced of those clear educational benefits (to do with welsh in particular - as you know the kids'll be bilingual anyway).
Because As a family we have no cultural or political links or bond with Welsh (you can call it my 'native' lanuage as much as you like, but that's not gonna change this).
And, cos they'll already be fluent in two languages in the home - and there is a very strong school of thought that suggests that intensive early years education in more than two languages could be detrimental to learning.*











*this opinion is based on numerous conversations with a range of early years experts and linguists - I could try and dig up some refs for you, but you don't really wanna read them, and I haven't got time as wasted too much of it today already .

 

[llantwit]

I don't agree with llantwit but I see where he's coming from - he doesn't want to risk his kids turning into Gogs

Absofuckinlutely!
At last someone understands!!

 

[llantwit]

the native language of their own country

As you know - there are two official languages - like in other countries, people should be able to choose which ones they and their families learn, and shouldn't HAVE to learn both.
That's all I'm saying.

 

[editor]

Because I'm not convinced of those clear educational benefits (to do with welsh in particular - as you know the kids'll be bilingual anyway).

Here you go:

Access to two cultures
One of the advantages of being bilingual is having access to two cultures - two different worlds of experience. With a language comes idiom and sayings, folk stories and history, poetry, literature and music, both traditional and contemporary.

Being able to speak Welsh also allows young people who speak Welsh to play a full part in community life in those areas of Wales where the language is widely used.

Educational benefits
Children who have two languages tend to do better in the curriculum and to show slightly higher performance in tests and examinations - research from bilingual education systems as far afield as Canada, the USA, the Basque country, Catalonia and Wales shows this. Analysis of examination results in Wales shows that children taught in Welsh medium schools consistently outperform their English-medium equivalents.

Third languages easier
There is growing evidence that bilinguals tend to find it easier to learn a third language. For example, children from countries like Holland, Denmark and Finland often speak three or four languages with ease.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/schoolgate/aboutschool/content/3inwelsh.shtml

 

[llantwit]

Do you speak Welsh?
Just curious.

 

[ddraig]

right can we take it back a bit please?

what has changed in the education system for you to have these concerns llantwit? i've either missed it or not be following this properly. i think i understand both sides as i mentioned before.

anyway, my own experience in breif afaicr
went to junior school which was welsh then the only welsh speaking comp in our town out of about 4 or 5 comps. got taught a fair few subjects through the medium of welsh some which were fair enough like history, geography and welsh obviously and some which were a bit daft like french and some of the sciences which weren't strictly to be taught in welsh but were which was down to the individual teachers.
we would get in trouble if we spoke english as much as we would for running in school or walking down the wrong side of the corridor etc. this was counterproductive and led the majority of us to rebel, which is something i now regret with hindsight. we didn't talk much welsh at home as though my mum tried, my dad wasn't at that time a welsh speaker and again, we were rebelling. also with mates we would converse in english apart from the hardcore few who mostly spoke welsh.
this maybe natural etc but imo contributed to the decline in the use and maybe in some eyes the usefullness of the mother tongue.

so i went to college in london and apart from the odd meeting with a fellow student or tourist i did not get to utilise my language and even then it was kind of embarrassing, i don't know why and still don't, something to do with the hiraeth/inbuilt shame of being 'away'. and after years of getting it from both sides - look he's a cockerney when i went 'home' and taff this, baaa that when i was in 'exile' i missed wales and welsh more and more and began to question whether i was happy in london and more importantly whether i could live with myself if i lost my welsh and welshness.
that and some other shit conspired to me returning a couple of years ago after 15yrs in london, mostly as i explain to people who ask 'to be welsh again'. yes i know it's silly and i can 'be' welsh anywhere in the world but it's how i felt/rationalised it.
despite not having had the opportunity to use the language much at all since i've been back i have not regretted it and feel better in myself.

so while i'm not up for forcing kids these days to learn welsh, i feel it's too precious to lose and would like to be able to polish up on it and use it in interactions now and again, not down the mochyn du or in the beeb with the crachach (who turn my stomach with their superiority complex) but with my fellow countrypeople who do speak it. and i would love to see the use of it spread as long as it's not to the detriment of others of course.
i hope that makes sense...

 

[llantwit]

//

 

[ddraig]

//

ce?

 

[editor]

Do you speak Welsh?
Just curious.

Nope - when I was at school, Welsh but all but dead and buried off the curriculum and I've regretted it all my life.

 

[llantwit]

right can we take it back a bit please?
what has changed in the education system for you to have these concerns llantwit? i've either missed it or not be following this properly. i think i understand both sides as i mentioned before.

OK - so what's changed. The new Welsh Language Act has set an objective for Wales to be fully bilingual by 2020.
In education a couple of things have already changed or are being implemented at the moment.
By 2008 the Founadtion Phase (early years) Curriculum has had a 'bilinguaism' subject area added to it which will make provision for education through the medium of Welsh compulsory accross the board in all state schools (not just Welsh schools, as was previously the case).
The new farmework for the inspection of schools (put out by the inspections body ESTYN) calso contains a 'bilingualism' category for inspection in previously English medium schools.
It's basically soon gonna be the law that all schools in wales will have to provide bilingual education through the medium of Welsh and English.

This means, as I've been carping on about for ages, I'll no longer be able to excercise choice over what languages my kids are educated in.

Now whether you value welsh or not, and of course there's gonna be a range of opinions accross the country varying between apathy either way, and strong support and opposition, you gotta admit that's a fairly big policy change that there wasn't a huge big public debate about and I'll warrant not many people know about even today.

It's cost fucking millions - and will cost even more in training of teachers and classroom assistants, and like the parents, the teachers won't be given a choice. If they don't want to learn Welsh they will be assessed under inspection as failing in their duty under the law.

These millions, I feel, could have been better spent in a whole range of more deserving places. I think that the language, particularly with regards to education, is given disproportionate importance by a legislature out of touch with what people really want.

 

[llantwit]

Off home now - not ignoring anyone.
tata

 

[ddraig]

cheers for that, much appreciated, i didn't know any of it tbh.

and there's no chance of

The new Welsh Language Act has set an objective for Wales to be fully bilingual by 2020.

whatever your viewpoint.

 

[llantwit]

Just to reiterate:

I'm not against the promotion of the Welsh language, and investment in more welsh-medium schools to create provision for welsh language or bilingual education for thos that want it.
I know a family in Cardiff who send one of their kids to Welsh medium school, and the other one goes to an English medium one cos there aren't enough places at the Welsh school. That's wrong, and shouldn't be the case.

I just want to be able to have a choice about what language my kids are educated in, and not to be forced to send them to a bilingual school when I don't want that for them.
That's not unreasonable, I think.

 

[zog]

Although I'm the first to admit that Welsh isn't exactly a vital world language, there seems to be enough documented evidence that kids taught in the medium of Welsh do tend to do better than monoglot speakers.

It might be because their parents tend to be of the middle classes down here, and that may have more to do with educational succsess than what language they are taught in.

and Ddraig, as far as getting a job in s4c i think you is speaking the wrong sort of Welsh.

I'm not knocking compulsory Welsh. If I could choose a compulsory subject for my kids not to take it would be religion.