A thread about the USA

[lyra_k]

Where do you live lyra

I live in a tiny place called Palominas - just a blip on the map really, right on the AZ/Mex border. It's quite different to Phoenix because of the elevation (5,000-ish feet), the climate is much more tolerable. It's sort of mountainous desert.

I only go to Phoenix once or twice a year and the heat is just...hot.

 

[trashpony]

My experience of that is that in large cities, ethnic groups do live much more separately than we're used to in, say, London, but that in small cities and small towns things are much more integrated.

I do wonder though how much of that is just down to the size of the populations involved....because in parts of the UK (and elsewhere in Europe) where there ARE very large minority populations, they also seem to group together.

Or maybe I've misunderstood what you meant by segregation....

No, that's what I meant. Just the difference between LA and London really. Here although there are definitely areas where minority populations congregate, the racial lines are more blurred.

I lived in a 'black neighbourhood' in LA and people used to slow down when they were driving past me on the street to get a better look at me.

 

[kyser_soze]

I lived in a 'black neighbourhood' in LA and people used to slow down when they were driving past me on the street to get a better look at me.

I remember reading an article in A.N. Magazine years ago about Brits in LA and how there's substantial numbers of Brit expats living in areas of the city that the locals regard as no go areas...

 

[dirtysanta]

While not especially liking the gun culture of the US, I had a lot of fun firing off rounds from a few semi- and automatic rifles and pistols when I was in Montana.

I did this. Fantastic day out. When i lived in Miami the guy who lived next door was a gun nut and entered every shooting comp going. Offered to take me to a range. I shot a Browning 9mm, M16 Assault, Shotgun (cant remember which one) and Uzi but my favourite was a Smith & Wesson .357 with a 6 inch barrell. It was heavy and had such a big recoil that i didnt hit the target for the first 10 rounds ! But it definately got my testosterone levels pumped right up. Its like firing a canon off the end of your arm.

I dont like the gun culture either but if i lived there and had the opportunity to own one then i think i would

 

[Neva]

That reaction is dictated by your own politics, surely? I'm not sure what your particular attidude to George Bush is, but you (at least) are CERTAINLY smart enough to distinguish between opposition to Bush/NeoCon Republicans/current US foreign policiy [etc.] and hatred of all Americans.

So get wiser -- there aren't too many Urban people (IMO) who just unthinkingly hate all Americans or all aspects of America. (Bear in mind I rarely go on P and P though, and almost never on World Affairs).

If people are slack in their phrasing and do say overgeneralising stuff, it's surely more effective for you to pull them up without assuming they hate all Americans and everything about the country -- unless they really do and have said so overtly in which case fuck em ....

I don't know. When I first joined the boards I used to think it was a reaction to U.S. politics sure but the more time I spend here the more I think it's gone beyond that and it's kind of become ingrained in the boards themselves. I mean a recent thread here was about new federal guidelines designed to help expectant mothers and the whole of the first two pages was just people shouting about how the U.S. was a Nazi state. I read threads on the same subject on two other predominately UK politics boards and neither of them went down that road. The general consensus even early on was that it was a good idea but perhaps misguided and could have potentially risky consequences. Only on Urban was America called the third reich and people felt it was okay to post ridiculous stereotypes like: "Somehow I can't see all those Texan rednecks sitting around with lemonade while their post-menopausal wives neck all the gin..."

That thread had very little to do with U.S. politics because no-one was reading the actual guidelines themselves. They were all taking their cue of the OP and each other so one poster said it was wrong and another followed up and said it was totalitarianism and then another followed on and said it was fascism and it all just escalated. That was just a recent example but I see threads like that all the time. I'm sure your right and that most people on this board don't hate America or anything like that but I think there's only a tiny minority who are willing to step on and call people on their posts when they do post that kind of nonsense and so the situation goes unchecked. It’s all very depressing.

 

[billy_bob]

I don't recognise that at all, and I live in the south west in the country, nearest town is a small town, Tucson is 70 miles away. Bars are open until 1 or 2am usually, and restaurants until about 10pm (unless they are more breakfasty-lunchy type places, in which case yeah they might close mid to late afternoon).

Not trying to attack your post there, but had to comment as it's completely contrary to my own experience.

Mrs_bob and I intending to retire to that part of the world, maybe you can show us where to get a good meal (that's a few years off...)

I guess I'm generalising on the basis of the experiences I had that were different from what it's like back home - so I'm picking up on things that didn't happen all the time when I was there, but when they happened I noticed them more, if you see what I mean. Also, I think it may have been some of the counties in Texas with particularly arcane liquor laws that caused the most problem.

I do remember some amazing breakfasts in Tucson diners.

 

[William of Walworth]

It depresses me that people can talk about accepting or celebrating cultural diversity, but when its American culture, they often seem to forget that, and just take a dig.

Not justifying this when it does happen -- but there's a reason for it (context/explanation, not justification). Among some people, the image of American culture is pretty unpopular, because such things as films, fast food, to some extent pro-capitalist political ideology, whats perceived as prevailing American attitudes towards other countries/other ideologies, 'cultural imperialism'in general) is seen as almost an extension of American foreign policy ....

Can't say I've all the time been immune from some of these reactions myself ...

But then I hate American fast food chains ..

America and Britain are both great places to visit, despite their stupid govts..

Agree. There should be more focus on Governmment (and capitalism )

 

[Neva]

Not Anti 'Merican as such, but maybe anti 'Merican Influence.

Most have no beef with the 300M Mericans - how can we ? but many do feel the influence of its perceived culture and values not just filtering, but gushing throu' and causing problems

being anti Merican values isnt the same as being anti 'merican

Well if it was just that then it would be okay. But a lot of the time it's more than that.

[edit] I mean do a search of the word redneck in the general forum and see how many people use it all the time to refer to Americans. It's ridiculous. If I was to start calling everyone from the UK a chav I'd have dozens of posters jumping all over me for using not just a generalisation but an offensive one at that (and rightly so). Redneck is just as bad, carries the same kind of racist slurs as chav and not once have I ever seen anyone, ever, pulled up for using it on this board.

I don't agree, I think it's anti the current administration in a big big way, Americans don't seem to realise how bush's homey-ness is completely the wrong thing we would want to see in a politician.

Well I'm not arguing it's anti-Bush because it clearly is and that’s fine. I just think that at times this extends past the administration and onto America as a whole which I would say isn’t fine.

 

[catrina]

I'm American but have lived in the UK for 6 years now. Like anywhere, there's pluses and minuses to both cultures.

I love the can do attitude of Americans, and the more general social mobility there as opposed to the UK. I miss the people, too, in a way I can't quite put my finger on. But, whenever I come across an American here, or back at home, I find it instantly easy to strike up a conversation, whereas in the UK, I can go months without speaking to people I don't know already, and am constantly second guessing myself.

I noticed that when I first came here, people were quite frank about their distrust of America and Americans, whereas in the US no one would greet a foreigner in that way.

But, there is a core of completely utter cluelessness in the US that really grates me and that keeps me away. I think it's as much to do with the isolated geography as history and culture, and I don't have a solution to fix the problem. But it's a big one.

 

[lyra_k]

ahhh, Texas. That explains it. The panhandle of Texas (we drive through it on our way to mr k's family in Oklahoma once or twice a year) is quite possibly the most desolate place I have ever been.

Regarding guns...well again it's only my perception, but with that caveat in place, I find that people in towns and cities are much less likely to have guns, but that because of the sheer size of the country so many people live a long way from help (for example the time it would take the police to get to you if you called them), that owning a gun is a BIT more understandble.

I mean isn't it sort of understandable that a farmer on a remote farm in Cumbria would have a gun? There are a LOT more people living like that in the USA than the UK because of the amount of space here.

I've always hated guns...still do really, but we do have a handgun and a shotgun within reasonably easy reach (childproof, but accessible to us), because it's so isolated here that if anything did happen, it would take help an hour to arrive.

 

[Belushi]

I remember reading an article in A.N. Magazine years ago about Brits in LA and how there's substantial numbers of Brit expats living in areas of the city that the locals regard as no go areas...

My brother and a mate went out to Memphis, Tennessee for the Lewis-Tyson fight a few years ago. They organised accomodation etc themselves and were in a motel in a poorer, black part of town. The whites he met reacted with horror when they discovered where he was staying, assuring him he was risking getting shot but he had a great time, had no problems and made plenty of friends in the local bar who friendly as hell, impressed that they'd travelled so far following Lewis and interested in Wales (a place most of them had never heard of).

 

[lyra_k]

I noticed that when I first came here, people were quite frank about their distrust of America and Americans, whereas in the US no one would greet a foreigner in that way.

...unless they were French, or non-white.

 

[zoltan]

Well if it was just that then it would be okay. But a lot of the time it's more than that.

[edit] I mean do a search of the word redneck in the general forum and see how many people use it all the time to refer to Americans. It's ridiculous. If I was to start calling everyone from the UK a chav I'd have dozens of posters jumping all over me for using not just a generalisation but an offensive one at that (and rightly so). Redneck is just as bad, carries the same kind of racist slurs as chav and not once have I ever seen anyone, ever, pulled up for using it on this board.

walk around the streets of most UK provincial towns & you would think that the country consists entirely of chavs

 

[catrina]

...unless they were French, or non-white.

Not true about the non-white part, althogh definitely true about the French!

(although I hear they've reverted back to French Fries now in the House of Commons)

 

[William of Walworth]

I don't know. When I first joined the boards I used to think it was a reaction to U.S. politics sure but the more time I spend here the more I think it's gone beyond that and it's kind of become ingrained in the boards themselves. I mean a recent thread here was about new federal guidelines designed to help expectant mothers and the whole of the first two pages was just people shouting about how the U.S. was a Nazi state. I read threads on the same subject on two other predominately UK politics boards and neither of them went down that road. The general consensus even early on was that it was a good idea but perhaps misguided and could have potentially risky consequences. Only on Urban was America called the third reich and people felt it was okay to post ridiculous stereotypes like: "Somehow I can't see all those Texan rednecks sitting around with lemonade while their post-menopausal wives neck all the gin..."

That thread had very little to do with U.S. politics because no-one was reading the actual guidelines themselves. They were all taking their cue of the OP and each other so one poster said it was wrong and another followed up and said it was totalitarianism and then another followed on and said it was fascism and it all just escalated. That was just a recent example but I see threads like that all the time. I'm sure your right and that most people on this board don't hate America or anything like that but I think there's only a tiny minority who are willing to step on and call people on their posts when they do post that kind of nonsense and so the situation goes unchecked. It’s all very depressing.

My only post on that thread (the only one as I recall, anyway) was hostile, but also carefully qualified (despite someone's attempt to distort my reaction).

But I'll let others who were more involved in the thread respond to the above. I'm no fan of Godwins Law busting 'Third Reich/evil Nazis' type stuff because they're so frequently inaccurate and full of dodgy hyperbole, but I suspect you're remembering the worst of the reactions at the expense of the less inflammatory ones, maybe?

Remember that right wing evangelist fundaMENTALism, where it has undue influence over health policy and attitudes to such things as abortion, etc., is pretty damned unpopular for many over here. (I speak generally, because as I say, I wasn't involved in the detail of that thread).

But I'm sure there's plenty of opposition to all that from less religious, more 'liberal' Americans.

Actually, thinking about it, differing prevailing attitudes towards religion between the US and the UK may explain a lot of all the cultural stuff ...
ETA to qualify : I mean perceived differences as much as actual .. of course there are plenty of Americans who aren't religious, or who really do keep it to themselves. But the minority who don't, is much larger in the US surely. A secular, non-religious Brit (ie most of them ), is just going to react with incomprehension towards constant references by American poliicians (for eg) to 'praying', etc.

(was in a bit of a rush with this post just before, so edited for typos etc.)

 

[Belushi]

Not true about the non-white part, althogh definitely true about the French!

Everybody hates the French, it doesnt count

 

[Shandril19]

Not true about the non-white part, althogh definitely true about the French!

I was going to say that!

 

[kyser_soze]

Neva - you're not loosing it or anything, cos I've noticed the same thing as well. There seems to be a feeling that it's acceptable to knock the US in manner and language that were it directed at other countries would be condemned - I didn't see the thread you're talking about, but quite frankly anyone bandying around terms like 'nazi state' and 'big brother' who lives in the UK needs to spend some time in a country where there are serious restrictions on behaviour and that the secret police will come and arrest you for saying/doing certain things.

Not to say that at the moment the US isn't gripped by a kind of post-modern Mcarthyism, but as with Mcarthyism itself the obsession with security etc will pass - and quite soon I reckon - it's starting to impact seriously on a huge range of Merkins activities on a day-to-day basis and Bush and his little gang of NeoCons and Xtians (who are also starting to desert him) are falling from grace at a quite rapid pace.

 

[trashpony]

I don't know. When I first joined the boards I used to think it was a reaction to U.S. politics sure but the more time I spend here the more I think it's gone beyond that and it's kind of become ingrained in the boards themselves. I mean a recent thread here was about new federal guidelines designed to help expectant mothers and the whole of the first two pages was just people shouting about how the U.S. was a Nazi state. I read threads on the same subject on two other predominately UK politics boards and neither of them went down that road. The general consensus even early on was that it was a good idea but perhaps misguided and could have potentially risky consequences. Only on Urban was America called the third reich and people felt it was okay to post ridiculous stereotypes like: "Somehow I can't see all those Texan rednecks sitting around with lemonade while their post-menopausal wives neck all the gin..." .

As I pointed out at the time, that thread was in response to the article in the OP. Which is what happens here - someone posts an article, people respond to it. If you were so incensed that people weren't commenting on the actual federal guidelines, why didn't you post a link to them and make the point yourself rather than waiting for someone else to do it? The article was sensationalist but you didn't actually correct the allegations it made.

 

[keybored]

Two families moved from Afghanistan to America. When they arrived, the two fathers made a bet -- in a year's time whichever family had become more Americanized would win.
A year later they met. The first man said, "My son is playing baseball, I had McDonald's for breakfast and I'm on my way to pick up a case of Bud, how about you?"
The second man replied, "Fuck you, towel head."

 

[Neva]

My onmly post on that thread was hostile, but carefully qualified (despite siomeone's attemt to distort my reaction.

But I'll let others who were motre involed in the thread respond to it. I'm no fan of Godwins Law busting 'Third Reich/evil Nazis' type stuff because they're inaccurate and full of dodgy hyperbole, but I suspect you're remembering the worst of the reactions at the expense of the less inflammatory ones, maybe?

I probably am yeah but I'm pretty sure it wasn't until the third page or so that someone actually turned up and said 'No that's not what's happening' and explained why. I don't think that would have been the case had the guidelines not been American and I sure as hell don't think any other country would have been equated with Nazi Germany even if they had introduced the exact same guidelines.

Remember that right wing evangelist fundaMENTALism, where it has undue influence over health policy and attitudes to such things as abortion, etc., is pretty damned unpopular for many over here. (I speak generally, because as I say, I wasn't involved in the detail of thayt thread).

But I'm sure there's plenty of opposition to all that from less religious, more 'liberal' Americans.

Actually, thinking about it, differing prevailing attitudes towards religion between the US and the UK may explain a lot of all the cultural stuff ...

Well yeah I agree. Christian attitude towards abortion is undefendable. (Although Christianity is hardly exclusive to America but I take your point.)

 

[William of Walworth]

Neva - you're not loosing it or anything, cos I've noticed the same thing as well. There seems to be a feeling that it's acceptable to knock the US in manner and language that were it directed at other countries would be condemned - I didn't see the thread you're talking about, but quite frankly anyone bandying around terms like 'nazi state' and 'big brother' who lives in the UK needs to spend some time in a country where there are serious restrictions on behaviour and that the secret police will come and arrest you for saying/doing certain things.

Not to say that at the moment the US isn't gripped by a kind of post-modern Mcarthyism, but as with Mcarthyism itself the obsession with security etc will pass - and quite soon I reckon - it's starting to impact seriously on a huge range of Merkins activities on a day-to-day basis and Bush and his little gang of NeoCons and Xtians (who are also starting to desert him) are falling from grace at a quite rapid pace.

This thread is now moving too fast, but you should check the thread Neva is talking about, rather than taking his take on it on trust.

 

[Neva]

As I pointed out at the time, that thread was in response to the article in the OP. Which is what happens here - someone posts an article, people respond to it. If you were so incensed that people weren't commenting on the actual federal guidelines, why didn't you post a link to them and make the point yourself rather than waiting for someone else to do it? The article was sensationalist but you didn't actually correct the allegations it made.

Um, because that had already happened by the time I read the thread?

 

[William of Walworth]

Well yeah I agree. Christian attitude towards abortion is undefendable. (Although Christianity is hardly exclusive to America but I take your point.)

I've edited/qualified my earlier post now, but I'd say, and you'd probably agree, that the more loathesome 'Christian' attitudes towards abortion seem to have more widespread influence in some parts of the US at least. Even than in some Catholic countries in Europe!

 

[sleaterkinney]

Well I'm not arguing it's anti-Bush because it clearly is and that’s fine. I just think that at times this extends past the administration and onto America as a whole which I would say isn’t fine.

A point would be that America re-elected Bush, despite knowing what he was like, also you get commentators like for example Ann Coulter who are popular in the US, stuff like Fox news which is also popular and just seems abhorrent to us over here(well me at least).

 

[King Mob]

I don't know. When I first joined the boards I used to think it was a reaction to U.S. politics sure but the more time I spend here the more I think it's gone beyond that and it's kind of become ingrained in the boards themselves. I mean a recent thread here was about new federal guidelines designed to help expectant mothers and the whole of the first two pages was just people shouting about how the U.S. was a Nazi state. I read threads on the same subject on two other predominately UK politics boards and neither of them went down that road. The general consensus even early on was that it was a good idea but perhaps misguided and could have potentially risky consequences. Only on Urban was America called the third reich and people felt it was okay to post ridiculous stereotypes like: "Somehow I can't see all those Texan rednecks sitting around with lemonade while their post-menopausal wives neck all the gin..."

That thread had very little to do with U.S. politics because no-one was reading the actual guidelines themselves. They were all taking their cue of the OP and each other so one poster said it was wrong and another followed up and said it was totalitarianism and then another followed on and said it was fascism and it all just escalated. That was just a recent example but I see threads like that all the time. I'm sure your right and that most people on this board don't hate America or anything like that but I think there's only a tiny minority who are willing to step on and call people on their posts when they do post that kind of nonsense and so the situation goes unchecked. It’s all very depressing.

That topic was discussed all round the net and like yourself, i saw the same old pattern form-"all Americans are Nazis", "how can they do such a thing" and the classic used on at least three boards, "this is worse than the Taliban".
It's easier for people to stay on a bandwagon than it is to actually deal with the fact that Guardian article was innaccurate and quite misleading. But who lets facts get in the way of a good slagging?

I don't think this board (i've been hanging round these boards in one shape or form for years) are especially anti-American compared to a hell of a lot of UK based forums which are, quite frankly, just plain racist in their blind hatred of Americans.

But there is a real problem with anti-Americanism in the UK, it's got much worse since 9/11 and the Iraq invasion and shows no signs of letting up.

 

[lyra_k]

American "Christianity" is utterly bizarre - I was just talking to a friend about this the other day, and it's on the cover of this week's Time magazine. It is evolving into something that wouldn't even be recognised as Christianity in other Christian countries, and is a perversion of the word.

Christianity is not used as a broad term (as it should be, in my view) to cover all the different Christian denominations, but rather as a very narrow, evangelical genre, which conveniently forgets about humility poverty and loving thy neighbour, in favour of getting rich, judging people and "accepting Christ as your Saviour" being the only requirement to get into heaven. It's pretty sick. People who believe this stuff genuinely don't think that the word Christian should be applied to Catholics, for instance, or those in more liberal churches like the Episcopalians (sp?).

 

[N_igma]

My cousins are from America, never been there but they come here sometimes. While they're not the southern bible bashing redneck types, they do seem very gullabile and naive. The type that would listen to whatever the media tells them. Very sound people though.

 

[trashpony]

Um, because that had already happened by the time I read the thread?

Sorry - I thought you'd been there earlier. But my point remains. And if it had been any other country and they were proposing to prosecute women for having a sneaky fag while they were pregnant, I can assure you the invective would have been much the same. I don't think there's any basis for you saying that people wouldn't have used the word Nazi if the country in question had been Australia for example.

 

[King Mob]

A point would be that America re-elected Bush, despite knowing what he was like, also you get commentators like for example Ann Coulter who are popular in the US, stuff like Fox news which is also popular and just seems abhorrent to us over here(well me at least).

Or...

A point would be that Britain re-elected Tony Blair despite knowing what he was like, also you get commentators like for example Jeremy Clarkson and stuff like the Daily Mail, etc...