A thread about the USA

[mack]

As a family we went to the USA on a fly drive motel thing when I was 10 (1980) it was great, my dad managed to crash the hired Thunderbird into a greyhound within 2 minutes of getting in it.

We went to Vegas, LA, San Fran, San Diego and a few other places, Hoover Dam and the Sequioa (big tree place) park and Hollywood were all great.

I'd love to visit again one day so I can appreciate the vastness of the place a bit better.

 

[Neva]

What some (not just dwyer) assume, or want to assume, is sweeping Urban anti-Americanism, is as often as not much better specified and focussed criticisms of some Amercians, some aspects of American politics and life. Most people who here who hate George Bush's strand of Republicanism [to use lazy shorthand, but you know what I'm getting at] are perfectly well aware that there are plenty of other Americans who oppose him and his politics.

Actually I agree with Dwyer. Urban is very anti-American. A lot of the time it's valid points but I read more ridiculous generalisations and uninformed opinions about the States than I do on any other country or population.

 

[Chorlton]

No country that produces that much good music can be bad

end.of

 

[Chorlton]

Urban is very anti-American.

britain (in particular the left) is very anti-american

this board just accurately reflects this - not everyone on the left in britain is, not everyone on these boards are, but it gives an accurate reflection of british peoples thoughts IMO

 

[Paulaviki]

I have american cousins, who originally lived in Seattle, then spread out and moved to Florida, Vegas, San Francisco amongst other places, they don't fit any of the stereotypes of Americans, and they are mormons. One of them got married in the Caribbean a few years back and all their mates from the USA were lovely.

I've also been to America 3 times, once when I was very small (had my first birthday and took my first steps in LA), once when I was 11 (Disney) and a few years back stopped in LA on the way back from New Zealand. I can't really think of anything bad to say at all. I do think Americans on the whole are very friendly, but to be honest find myself questioning how sincere they are.......

I think some of the issues people tend to have with america is more to do with a way of life, the whole fast food/junk food thing, the driving massive engined cars which do serious damage to the environment, the still having the dealth penalty in some states, the having someone like Bush in charge etc.

 

[William of Walworth]

Actually I agree with Dwyer. Urban is very anti-American. A lot of the time it's valid points but I read more ridiculous generalisations and uninformed opinions about the States than I do on any other country or population.

That reaction is dictated by your own politics, surely? I'm not sure what your particular attidude to George Bush is, but you (at least) are CERTAINLY smart enough to distinguish between opposition to Bush/NeoCon Republicans/current US foreign policiy [etc.] and hatred of all Americans.

So get wiser -- there aren't too many Urban people (IMO) who just unthinkingly hate all Americans or all aspects of America. (Bear in mind I rarely go on P and P though, and almost never on World Affairs).

If people are slack in their phrasing and do say overgeneralising stuff, it's surely more effective for you to pull them up without assuming they hate all Americans and everything about the country -- unless they really do and have said so overtly in which case fuck em ....

 

[stevepinker]

britain (in particular the left) is very anti-american

this board just accurately reflects this - not everyone on the left in britain is, not everyone on these boards are, but it gives an accurate reflection of british peoples thoughts IMO

Oh thats O.k then .. I'll remember that the next time i hear something racist

 

[kyser_soze]

It has the most varied landscape due to its size and that was the main impact it made on me - but I know we're talking about the people here.

Well, I veer toward the 'physical environment leads emotional environment' view, and it gave me an understanding of the nature of many Merkin's faith - especially as you head toward the mid-west and are given these panoramic vistas of incredible beauty that go on forever, but there in the knowledge that those lovely fluffy white clouds can touch down and start killing people at any minute - I think if I lived in such an environment my attitude toward religion might be different!

I'd also really like to go back and spend 6 months to a year travelling again, but a combination of a lady who doesn't really want to go to the US to travel coupled with the current shit about security (not to mention money, altho as a sterling holder that's not a big deal at the moment ) and the rest I'm disinclined to go.

 

[Chorlton]

Oh thats O.k then .. I'll remember that the next time i hear something racist

errr......





what?

 

[zoltan]

Actually I agree with Dwyer. Urban is very anti-American. A lot of the time it's valid points but I read more ridiculous generalisations and uninformed opinions about the States than I do on any other country or population.

Not Anti 'Merican as such, but maybe anti 'Merican Influence.

Most have no beef with the 300M Mericans - how can we ? but many do feel the influence of its perceived culture and values not just filtering, but gushing throu' and causing problems

being anti Merican values isnt the same as being anti 'merican

 

[Streathamite]

been there several times; mostly florida, where me dad had his villa, but also all over the deep south, california, new england and Noi Yoik. I loved it. the people are very open, positive, friendly. They have the tendency of great power citizens everywhere - they tend to believe their own bullshit.
very courteous people outside mof NYC and Florida, too.
worst racism i ever saw was in US tho

 

[kyser_soze]

britain (in particular the left) is very anti-american

this board just accurately reflects this - not everyone on the left in britain is, not everyone on these boards are, but it gives an accurate reflection of british peoples thoughts IMO

Where do you get this from? Just this week at least one opinion poll showed that while peeps think that currently UK policy is too aligned with the US, most people in this country like the US and Americans; there certainly isn't the level of public or institutional anti-US feeling of France for example outside of the left.

Hell, during the 90s the US was more popular than the EU among Brits!

 

[William of Walworth]

britain (in particular the left) is very anti-american

Are you on the left yourself? (Genuiunely don't know this, the only time I've ever really tangled with you is during the World Cup )

this board just accurately reflects this - not everyone on the left in britain is, not everyone on these boards are, but it gives an accurate reflection of british peoples thoughts IMO

I question how true is this thing about UK/Urban being sweepingly anti-American.

I suppose there's some truth in it, but there's plenty of factors to explain that -- so many Bush-hating AMERICANS are as critical, or even more critical, of current US foreign policy in particular than we are. Good on em.

If the US has a bad/unpopular image in the world, I'd say don't just blame those reacting -- also blame those arrogant enough to pursue a deeply megalomaniac foreign policy without giving any proper thought to WHY it's so unpopular ...

 

[Chorlton]

Where do you get this from?

general perception - i find the people i work and socialise with to be quite anti american - in thinking about it i don't think it is anymore from the left as the right tho

 

[billy_bob]

The whole food/eating out culture weirded me out. You try to go to a restaurant at a civilised time, say 8pm, and they're about to shut for the night. And most of the bars we found open past that time were full of people with fresh stitches in their heads who'd been in prison as recently as that morning. That's in the south west though, I've no doubt it's different in more cosmo-/metro-politan areas.

As for the friendliness thing, I found it superficial. Admittedly that's better than the constant surly rudeness you experience all around you in this country but for example, if you complained or queried something in a shop or restaurant, however politely and reasonably, you were very often met with frank disinterest and unhelpfulness.

Have to say that in Texas I've met an awful lot of people who fulfil every Nuke-riding redneck King of the Hill Dallas cliche about the place. But those individuals would still only make up a tiny fraction of the overall number of people I've met there.

 

[kyser_soze]

William - as you said in your last post, you rarely venture into P&P where a very different view of the US prevails, to the point where it becomes distasteful to read some people's views because they quite clearly ARE lumping 300 million people together and prejudging them.

 

[trashpony]

Actually I agree with Dwyer. Urban is very anti-American. A lot of the time it's valid points but I read more ridiculous generalisations and uninformed opinions about the States than I do on any other country or population.

You're American though aren't you? I'm not condoning it and there are some sweeping generalisatins but tbh a lot less than general conversation down the pub.

Unfortunately for the majority of Brits, the face of the US is Dubya.

 

[Chorlton]

Are you on the left yourself?

i don't know - i've never really understood politics - i am an anti-war vegetrian who cycles to work - i think that might mean i hate freedom tho

i take back my statement that i think its more prevalent on the left tho

 

[William of Walworth]

Where do you get this from? Just this week at least one opinion poll showed that while peeps think that currently UK policy is too aligned with the US, most people in this country like the US and Americans; there certainly isn't the level of public or institutional anti-US feeling of France for example outside of the left.

Hell, during the 90s the US was more popular than the EU among Brits!

I saw a frustratingly unsourced factoid in the Guardian the other day which said that polls in Egypt reached 2 conclusions :

1. The US was the country most hated by the greatest proportion of Egyptians
2. The US was the overseas country the greatest proportion of Egyptians wanted to emigrate to.

I take kyser's point -- in my view, until recently, the EU and other EU countries were much more subject to hostility by far more not very politicised people than the US was.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Actually I agree with Dwyer. Urban is very anti-American. A lot of the time it's valid points but I read more ridiculous generalisations and uninformed opinions about the States than I do on any other country or population.

I don't agree, I think it's anti the current administration in a big big way, Americans don't seem to realise how bush's homey-ness is completely the wrong thing we would want to see in a politician.

 

[Dirty Martini]

I've been around California and to NYC twice, loved every minute.

I liked the energy, the overall friendliness (though it's laid on pretty thick in bars and shops), and the surprisingly dry and cynical sense of humour (NYC particularly). I think NYC is much more politically charged than London actually, lots of stuff going on.

Outside the cities in California, there seemed to be a lot of political thinking that could be charitably called deeply conservative, but people are more upfront about it than in Britain.

Can't stand anti-Americanism -- that most Americans are fat, thick and can't place Paris on a map, "typical American stupidity", that sort of thing. Retrograde bullshit. It has as many nutters and thickoes as anywhere else.

 

[zoltan]

I remember talking to a Kosovan KLA informal some time ago ( utter utter cunts by the way, despite the freedom fighter shite we read ) who came out with some anti Merican Islamic rhetioroc/ Jihad/ Allah as if he had been taught it. 30 mins later he was asking if I could help him he could get a visa to Merica to work.

 

[William of Walworth]

William - as you said in your last post, you rarely venture into P&P where a very different view of the US prevails, to the point where it becomes distasteful to read some people's views because they quite clearly ARE lumping 300 million people together and prejudging them.

I'd best keep out of there then!

Sounds shite, but I'd like to hear other folks opinions on that ....including from some of the smarter/more analytical lefties ... I'll take your word for it though that there are a fair few intemperate and sweeping comments!

what proportion of those are reactions to Go USA! cretins like mears and (until recently) pbman though -- I don't know how many people like that post in P and P or how prolificly, but I can understand people losing their rag with them

 

[trashpony]

In answer to Lyra's question, I lived in Minnesota for a year and a half when I was young and in LA for a couple of years in my early 20s. I've travelled around the States alot and the only place I found truly frightening in terms of the stereotypical Deliverance types was Washington (the state, not the city).

I did find the racial segregation unpleasant and the enthusiasm for guns and the death penalty peculiar but on the whole I loved living there. I visit New York or LA pretty much every year now. I've got a lot of friends there.

 

[lyra_k]

The whole food/eating out culture weirded me out. You try to go to a restaurant at a civilised time, say 8pm, and they're about to shut for the night. And most of the bars we found open past that time were full of people with fresh stitches in their heads who'd been in prison as recently as that morning. That's in the south west though, I've no doubt it's different in more cosmo-/metro-politan areas.

I don't recognise that at all, and I live in the south west in the country, nearest town is a small town, Tucson is 70 miles away. Bars are open until 1 or 2am usually, and restaurants until about 10pm (unless they are more breakfasty-lunchy type places, in which case yeah they might close mid to late afternoon).

Not trying to attack your post there, but had to comment as it's completely contrary to my own experience.

 

[kyser_soze]

While not especially liking the gun culture of the US, I had a lot of fun firing off rounds from a few semi- and automatic rifles and pistols when I was in Montana.

 

[Shandril19]

If people are slack in their phrasing and do say overgeneralising stuff, it's surely more effective for you to pull them up without assuming they hate all Americans and everything about the country -- unless they really do and have said so overtly in which case fuck em ....

While I do generally believe that most "anti-American" statements that appear on here are simply the result of lazy writing which allow criticisms/mockeries/insults to unintentionally spread far past their intended recipients, I'm not sure it's fair to put the burden for fighting it solely on us.

There have been threads that I've avoided posting on all together, because the tide of public opinion seemed so far out of wack that it felt deeply antagonistical. On those threads, I did genuinely feel that any attempt to point out broad generalizations, unfair sweeping statements, etc would have been endlessly derided and set myself up for very negative backlash.

I have not let that color my general opinion of Urban, as I've posted/read here long enough to have a better sense of what this community generally represents and the more normal tone of conversations here. But I do think perhaps some of you do underestimate the non-specified anti-American tone that can be present at times.

 

[Gavin Bl]

I don't recognise that at all, and I live in the south west in the country, nearest town is a small town, Tucson is 70 miles away. Bars are open until 1 or 2am usually, and restaurants until about 10pm (unless they are more breakfasty-lunchy type places, in which case yeah they might close mid to late afternoon).

Not trying to attack your post there, but had to comment as it's completely contrary to my own experience.

Where do you live lyra, I lived/worked in Phoenix back in 1999? Got some rellies in NY, travelled quite alot too - I really like the US, yes you can find examples of any number of stereotypes, there - but always outweighed by positive experiences - which is true of most countries.

I was struck by how pleasant and open people are generally. I depresses me that people can talk about accepting or celebrating cultural diversity, but when its American culture, they often seem to forget that, and just take a dig.

America and Britain are both great places to visit, despite their stupid govts..

 

[lyra_k]

I did find the racial segregation unpleasant

My experience of that is that in large cities, ethnic groups do live much more separately than we're used to in, say, London, but that in small cities and small towns things are much more integrated.

I do wonder though how much of that is just down to the size of the populations involved....because in parts of the UK (and elsewhere in Europe) where there ARE very large minority populations, they also seem to group together.

Or maybe I've misunderstood what you meant by segregation....

 

[William of Walworth]

Shandril -- criticisms of Bush/US foreign policy, etc. should be specified more clearly in those terms I agree.

To what extent do you share those more specified criticisms?

I still question that they make Urban 'anti-American' in the sense that the odd right wing American visitor here tends to assume -- that any critic of Bush is a hater of freedom and bigotted against America and all Americans ...

I appreciate your point is different and more nuanced than that simplistic take on it.