a 'penalising gas guzlers' question

[editor]

It appears you know nothing about the kit a gardener needs. So I think I am entitled to comment.

So all gardeners need a 4x4 then do they, toby?

You kill me!

 

[madzone]

I couldn't be bothered to dig up the priginal sources, but feel free to argue the toss on the points covered.

Seeing as you appear to be in one of 'those' moods I don't think I will

 

[Crispy]

Landscape gardener is just a builder who doesn't build things taller than their hips. A truck/van is completely appropriate, IMO.

 

[editor]

Landscape gardener is just a builder who doesn't build things taller than their hips. A truck/van is completely appropriate, IMO.

You haven't read the thread properly.

He said he needed it for a "bit of gardening" and made no mention of "landscape gardening" in his original post.

 

[editor]

Seeing as you appear to be in one of 'those' moods I don't think I will

I'm not in a mood at all, but if you'd like to take issue with any of the points made in that linked article, I'd be glad to back them up if you have trouble with the original source.

 

[madzone]

You haven't read the thread properly.

He said he needed it for a "bit of gardening" and made no mention of "landscape gardening" in his original post.

I call my husband a gardener when in reality he builds ponds, patios, restores stone hedges etc as well as hedge cutting, strimming and mowing. I think it's a bit nit picky to focus on what constitutes gardening.

And to be equally nit picky he actually said 'a bit of gardening etc' - The etc may hold more clues to what he needs a 4x4 for.

 

[editor]

I call my husband a gardener when in reality he builds ponds, patios, restores stone hedges etc as well as hedge cutting, strimming and mowing. I think it's a bit nit picky to focus on what constitutes gardening.

I'd say it's more nitpicking and dishonest to insist that every single gardener needs a 4x4 actually, because it's blatantly untrue.

If you'd like to change that to say 'landscape gardeners', I'd agree that a car is unlikely to be sufficient for their needs.

 

[Crispy]

Endpoint is, if you need to cart gardening amounts of stone around, you need some heft. Large vehicles have their uses, and blanket fines/bans are not appropriate.

 

[madzone]

Endpoint is, if you need to cart gardening amounts of stone around, you need some heft. Large vehicles have their uses, and blanket fines/bans are not appropriate.

That's way too reasonable

 

[likesfish]

although if you need a range rover to take your child to school in london it may be time to look at the childs diet

 

[madzone]

although if you need a range rover to take your child to school in london it may be time to look at the childs diet

Diet?

eta - I get it now

 

[fredfelt]

While I sympathise with anyone who gets slapped an extra £2,000 cost on their business if we are going to take climate change seriously then carbon intensive activities have to be more expensive. Why should businesses which require vehicles with high emissions not pay extra for the ‘privilege’ to pollute?

So a gardener may have to put up prices, or go out of business. But the whole economy has to be restructured if it is to become a low carbon economy.

And to address BB’s point about scape goating. Just because there are other areas where there is potential to reduce carbon emissions, it does not mean that a specific area (ie vehicles which produce massive amounts of carbon) should not be addressed. Every area needs to be addressed.

The £2,00 tax would be placed on newly registered vehicles anyway. This would leave room, and encourage the development of vans with low emissions.

 

[madzone]

While I sympathise with anyone who gets slapped an extra £2,000 cost on their business if we are going to take climate change seriously then carbon intensive activities have to be more expensive. Why should businesses which require vehicles with high emissions not pay extra for the ‘privilege’ to pollute?

So a gardener may have to put up prices, or go out of business. But the whole economy has to be restructured if it is to become a low carbon economy.

And to address BB’s point about scape goating. Just because there are other areas where there is potential to reduce carbon emissions, it does not mean that a specific area (ie vehicles which produce massive amounts of carbon) should not be addressed. Every area needs to be addressed.

The £2,00 tax would be placed on newly registered vehicles anyway. This would leave room, and encourage the development of vans with low emissions.

Put up prices or go out of business. Easy isn't it?

Is it only 4x4's that have high emissions then? As I understand it many modern 4x4's have lower emissions than a standard saloon. There are plenty of carbon intensive activities that the govt could tax but for some reason the 4x4 is the be all and end all of carbon intensive demons. Doesn't strike you as strange at all?

The fact that we live on a smallholding and need a 4x4 to produce our organic food with extremely limited food miles doesn't count for fuck all does it?

Anyone who puts a blanket assessment on 4x4 use is as big a twat as the mum driving her kids 200 yds to school in a range rover.

I despair of (otherwise intelligent) people when they buy into this govt led shite about the environment. It's fuck all to do with the environment and all to do with raising funds.

 

[Crispy]

If you're going to make it an environmental tax, then it should be on the fuel. Ideally, the amount of tax you pay should be proportional to the efficiency of the vehicle you are filling up, but that'd be very tricky to enforce.

After all, if (for example) you were going to buy a shiny 4x4 and only drive it twice a year, that £2000 tax means fuck all when it comes to emissions.

 

[fredfelt]

Put up prices or go out of business. Easy isn't it?

Is it only 4x4's that have high emissions then? As I understand it many modern 4x4's have lower emissions than a standard saloon. There are plenty of carbon intensive activities that the govt could tax but for some reason the 4x4 is the be all and end all of carbon intensive demons. Doesn't strike you as strange at all?

The fact that we live on a smallholding and need a 4x4 to produce our organic food with extremely limited food miles doesn't count for fuck all does it?

Anyone who puts a blanket assessment on 4x4 use is as big a twat as the mum driving her kids 200 yds to school in a range rover.

I despair of (otherwise intelligent) people when they buy into this govt led shite about the environment. It's fuck all to do with the environment and all to do with raising funds.

You did not really read my post. I did not mention 4 x 4's once. I refered to high emmisions vehicles.

You need a 4 x 4. Fine. You even state that many 4 x 4's have lower emissions than a standard 4 x 4. So if you replace your vehicle with a new 4 x 4, then just replace it with a new one which does not have a £2,000 tax on it.

This is partly the point. With a big tax on high emmision vehicles this can only force manufactures to offer more efficient vehicles.

But I disagree with you that looking at emissions from transport is fuck all to do with the environment. As an individual our biggest emissions come from transport and heating, and to a lesser extent powering our homes. For this reason it does not strike me as strange that a higher annual tax may be placed on vehicles with high emmisions.

 

[madzone]

You So if you replace your vehicle with a new 4 x 4, then just replace it with a new one which does not have a £2,000 tax on it.

A new one? You don't live in the same kind of world as I do

 

[fredfelt]

A new one? You don't live in the same kind of world as I do

I mentioned a new one as the tax would only be on new vehicles and not applied retrospectively.

Again this is my point. Get a second hand one and you would not be as concerned that is had high emmisions as it would not fall into the £2,000 tax band. But if you got a new one then you would make sure it did not fall into that tax band.

 

[chymaera]

A new one? You don't live in the same kind of world as I do

Quite, although Cornwall has the highest car ownership per head in Britain, it also has the oldest vehicles.

 

[madzone]

I mentioned a new one as the tax would only be on new vehicles and not applied retrospectively.

Again this is my point. Get a second hand one and you would not be as concerned that is had high emmisions as it would not fall into the £2,000 tax band. But if you got a new one then you would make sure it did not fall into that tax band.

And I can still fly to Paris for less than a fiver

 

[chymaera]

And I can still fly to Paris for less than a fiver

That depends if you want to go to Paris. (The only place in France I don't want to go.)

 

[fredfelt]

And I can still fly to Paris for less than a fiver

So lets not do anything about climate change as you can fly to paris for a fiver. You clearly live in a different world to me if you would fly to Paris.

 

[madzone]

So lets not do anything about climate change as you can fly to paris for a fiver. You clearly live in a different world to me if you would fly to Paris.

Well, I own a 4x4 I can't be interested in the environment can I?

I haven't flown to Paris, nor would I. I'm making the point that all the while the govt are waxing lyrical about climate change and taxing 4x4's they're doing sweet F.A about the burgeoning cheap flight sector.

 

[ill-informed]

calm down, calm down

So just to clarify, i do general gardening, landscaping type things, fencing etc. Basically anything i'm asked to do and can get money for (I try and promote myself as a wildlife, conservation expert.) And as has been said, often that involves lugging around a lot of materials.

Inspired by a post though i've taken another look into biodiesel, and found a source, so i think i will take a trip and get some, i'll be going near there in october anyway.

Some good posts, i think everyone is on the same side, we're all trying to get by without destroying the planet, but it's difficult.

 

[madzone]

calm down, calm down

So just to clarify, i do general gardening, landscaping type things, fencing etc. Basically anything i'm asked to do and can get money for (I try and promote myself as a wildlife, conservation expert.) And as has been said, often that involves lugging around a lot of materials.

Inspired by a post though i've taken another look into biodiesel, and found a source, so i think i will take a trip and get some, i'll be going near there in october anyway.

Some good posts, i think everyone is on the same side, we're all trying to get by without destroying the planet, but it's difficult.

So, if vehicles are using biodiesel will they be exempt from the tax?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I haven't flown to Paris, nor would I. I'm making the point that all the while the govt are waxing lyrical about climate change and taxing 4x4's they're doing sweet F.A about the burgeoning cheap flight sector.

I think every thread we've ever had about flying and the environment has featured people trying to claim that flights are more or less the only thing ever focussed on.

</aside>

 

[fredfelt]

Well, I own a 4x4 I can't be interested in the environment can I?

I haven't flown to Paris, nor would I. I'm making the point that all the while the govt are waxing lyrical about climate change and taxing 4x4's they're doing sweet F.A about the burgeoning cheap flight sector.

I never implied that owning a 4 x 4 means that you (or anyone) is not interested in the environment. Nor either have I heard this goverment saying anything about taxing 4 x 4's.

 

[madzone]

I agree there's lots of discusson about flights but nothing is ever actually proposed is it? You can still get airmailes as an incentive to buy stuff and the govt still sanction the building of new runways. When they start addressing the impact of low cost flights and actually doing something about it I'll start believeing the they're proposing to tax 4x4's because they're truly concerned about the environment.

 

[madzone]

I never implied that owning a 4 x 4 means that you (or anyone) is not interested in the environment. Nor either have I heard this goverment saying anything about taxing 4 x 4's.

It's not all about you, you know.

 

[editor]

After all, if (for example) you were going to buy a shiny 4x4 and only drive it twice a year, that £2000 tax means fuck all when it comes to emissions.

But if it's only been driven twice a year, that's good for the environment!

Thing is taxing the fuel would hit people in the countryside more, where there actually is often a legitimate need for 4x4s.

My main beef is people driving 4x4s around cities and towns anyhow and that's where I think the fuckers should be taxed where it hurts.

 

[Crispy]

But if it's only been driven twice a year, that's good for the environment!

Exactly. And yet the tax would still apply. Very silly.

Thing is taxing the fuel would hit people in the countryside more, where there actually is often a legitimate need for 4x4s.

True - some sort of compensation for farmers would be good

My main beef is people driving 4x4s around cities and towns anyhow and that's where I think the fuckers should be taxed where it hurts.

Cities are stupid places to own any car, IMO - with the right public transport and more walking and cycling, private cars could be almost eliminated from the roads.