A note about "The Commander" from the Granuiad. (C&P - Sorry ed.)

[laptop]

Is that analytical enough for you?

No.

It's no more than "I don't like."

It provides no evidence of thinking, least of all of thinking about actual priorities and how they might be implemented.

Which reminds me of a strange thought I had about these boards a couple of days ago.

We have a lot of anarchists and anarchistish people seriously discussing and analysing policy at quite a high level. Even the trots sometimes get it. And then we have right-wingers coming in and going, like, "I think..." and then parroting some line from the Moseley.

Conclusion: anarchists make better politicians

BTW: I've been known to lean out of the window and yell "turn it up!" at cars. Not always sarcastically. But then we get an interesting mix in Befnal Green - including, once, Schubert lieder at 120dBA

 

[Bedgewick3]

But there's no contradiction between wanting zero tolerance re anti-social behaviour and coming down hard on major crimes. It's been suggested (although I'm not aware of any hard evidence) that criminals see litter and graffiti as signs that an area is uncared for and underpoliced and hence that they are more likely to get away with mugging someone.

..which is why Zero Tolerance is so adored by Middle England...that and its snappy soundbitey quality. Nice for the lazy who don't want to put time and effort finding out what the issues are and getting involved at a local level.......

Middle England Get out the garlic and the crucifix.

 

[Brian]

Too much to do, so little time!

The trouble, until relatively recently and still not all over London yet, has been too few cops and too much crime/disorder/anti-social behaviour to deal with it, hence the cannabis scheme. The Mayor and the Commissioner have now come up with the idea of 'Safer Neighbourhoods' where every ward in London is to get (eventually) its own team of 3 cops and 3 Police Community Support Officers. These 'Safer Neighbourhood' teams first find out what is at the top of local people's priorities. It is usually anti-scoial behaviour, abandoned cars, graffiti and that sort of stuff. Although not as serious as robbery or burglary, only a small proportion of the population are victims of these more serious crimes. Everyone notices the aggressive beggar or the graffiti, so these become the top priorities for the majority. The officers and the local authority then set about dealing with those issues, like towing away the abandoned cars and cleaning off the graffiti, dealing with the problem neighbours and dealing with the rowdy yobs.

We have tried 'neighbourhood policing' before but in the past it has always been at the expense of other types of policing like tackling robbery and burglary. This time the resources for the 'safer neighbourhood' teams are additional to those cops already dealing with the more serious crime. This time there is a real chance that we might be able to deal with the lower-level crime and anti-social behaviour (using the new troops) and keep on top of the more serious crime as well (using the existing cops). Initial indications are encouraging, with larger than average reductions in all types of crime, including the more serious, in those wards who have already got 'safer neighbourhood' teams.

None of this is 'zero tolerance'. It is about policing the priorities that are decided by local people, taking a 'problem-solving' approach (trying to tackle the underlying causes of crime and disorder as well as the symptoms) and working in partnership with local people and other agencies like the local authority. It is not about the police arresting everyone in sight for the slightest breach of the law, like it was in New York. We still have nowhere near the number of cops New York has and it is a very different style of policing here (by consent) than in the US (by force).

I think that is listening to what people want and dealing with anti-social behaviour but without 'zero tolerance'.

For my next trick...

 

[laptop]

For my next trick...

I have this big pitcher of water and these thirsty wedding guests

Can you say whether there's a relationship between these 'Safer Neighbourhood' teams, and the Bill for which the Home Office just flew a kite for the Queen's Speech?

Of course you couldn't possibly comment on the content of the presumed Bill...

-x-------------------------

My misthink - that will the Clean Neighbourhoods Bill. So it's connected in the mind of the Daily Mail leader-writer to whom it will be dedicated - but not necessarily in legal theory. Unless they sneak in some clauses that aren't to do with rubbish.

 

[MrSki]

What are Community Support Officers supposed to do?

I had to insist that two who were walking up Pentonville Road manned the failed traffic lights at the junction of Penton Street. In the last couple of years it has been the scene of a number of fatal accidents.

The two CSOs were walking past a major junction with the lights out and when I asked why they were not directing the traffic I was told that someone else was on the way. I kicked up a bit of a fuss & insisted they manned the junction till these others arrived.

I work in King's Cross & live in Brixton and I have never seen a CSO(?) doing anything else than just walking down the road. They seem happy to ignore certain crimes which I can understand but do they ever do anything?

Or are they old traffic wardens revamped when parking was mostly past over to local authorites?

I am not complaining about having more feet on the beat but if they ignore all that is going on then what's the point?

 

[hendo]

I think that is listening to what people want and dealing with anti-social behaviour but without 'zero tolerance'.
...

I think that's one of the best posts this month.

 

[Brian]

You are too kind...

...

I regret to announce that there are three types of police community support officer! Security PCSOs do high visibility anti-terrorism patrols in central London. They provide visible reassurance and act as 'eyes and ears' for the police in terms of anything unusual that may be suspicious. Their close cousins are community PCSOs who are all over London and provide the visible reassurance bit and have the potential to be a better 'bridge' between local people and the slightly more scary police officers with their batons and CS spray. There are more visible ethnic minorities and more women PCSOs than in the regular police and they tend to be older than new recruit cops, so they also reflect the community better, which also makes them more apporachable. Third we have traffic PCSOs who have the powers of traffic wardens in that they can, you guessed it, direct traffic, whereas the security and community PCSOs do not have those powers or that training. Unfortunately the PCSOs you came across by the defective traffic lights were as well qualified to direct traffic as you are!

Confused? All PCSOs have powers to detain people for arrestable offences until a cop arrives, can issue fixed penalty notices for things like disorder and all have direct radio link to the police. They all provide visible reasurance and are good at communicating with the public (well in theory, although, like cops, some are better than others!) All PCSOs have the same blue uniform but the traffic PCSOs have a yellow badge and 'TL' (Transport for London) on their shoulder.

So please do not throw blue-badged PCSOs into the traffic - grab a yellow-badged one instead.

You learn something new every day!

 

[Pot-Bellied Pig]

Well that's the problem then isn't it ! Nobody knows what they are and what they do...not even me and I'm supposed to !

Seriously I have no doubt that the public perception of feeling safer has a lot to do with the visible sight of police on the street. Its' votes isn't it. Its's Blunkett and Stevens on the TV about police on the street. Good.

Point. PCSO, CSO whatever are not police officers and should not be confused with real ones. I don't know what they do other than talk to kids and direct traffic. They do not catch burglars or street robbers or dealers.

Point. Even the real police answering calls are very young in service. In the crime ridden inner boroughs the average service of a team on shift is less than thre years. 60% have not passed their probation. Putting more police on the street. No.

Point. Say Brixton or Hackney on a night shift have less than 30 officers on the street ever. Most have less than 20. No PCSO on nights are there !

Sorry Brian..the line won't stretch. Ask the editor. He knows. So do I and so do you.

 

[Pickman's model]

Point. PCSO, CSO whatever are not police officers and should not be confused with real ones.

nah, they're pseudoplod.

 

[laptop]

nah, they're pseudoplod.

So if you see a PC, a PCSO(security), a PCSO(community) & a PCSO(traffic) together,
that's a tetraplod?

Helmet got.

 

[IntoStella]

nah, they're pseudoplod.

Species Pseudoplodicus letsbeavinyouensis, if I recall correctly. Easily recognisable by vivid yellow thorax and blank expression.

 

[Stobart Stopper]

So, does this make Brian a megaplod then?

 

[laptop]

So, does this make Brian a megaplod then?

He looks quite lithe in photos.

PBP, on the other hand, sounds like plodosaurus...

 

[Brian]

LOL can't compete with this!

 

[Streathamite]

I see PBP as more yer brontosaurus - vast, slow-moving and constantly under attack from the fast-moving bird, Stobartus Stopperipod

 

[Jessiedog]

I see PBP.....under attack from the fast-moving bird, Stobartus Stopperiplod

Woof

 

[Streathamite]

Brian - ta for the explanation of CSOs. to me, it seems like a terribly complicated way of achieving nothing much at all.
PBP - if it's true that frontline plod are v young and lacking in experience - err, where have all the more experienced ones gone? I mean, surely not ALL coppers are either 2-3yrs exp., or 20+years, and approaching gold watch time?

 

[Stobart Stopper]

I see PBP as more yer brontosaurus - vast, slow-moving and constantly under attack from the fast-moving bird, Stobartus Stopperipod

Shut it, you!

Look, you have all gone and made poor old Brian very confused now.

 

[Gramsci]

Well the opinions of people like you have led us to this sorry state of affairs. Go and read the Guardian. Maybe I have seen too much but you my friend know jack shite. Sorry I have had to edit this attack under SS orders..ugh.

Casper Hauser knows a lot about Policing.On threads Ive started on Policing in Brixton hes come up with some really good posts.So back off with your Daily Mail fascist abuse.

 

[Gramsci]

OK guys, it's like this...

Now all this was 20 years ago and the 'canteen culture', if it still exists, is far healthier now than it was then. The whole idea was to undermine any illegitimate corrupting sub-cultures than might exist by telling officers to resist them by obeying their own values and norms. In general I think that is better than blind allegiance to anything, not least a corrupting and illegitimate police sub-culture.

What do I stand for? I stand for, alarmingly enough, Hitchen's police force of 'citizens in uniform' who are part of the community and do what the community want, and, as importantly, do not do what the community does not want. I tried to do that in Lambeth.

It is so hard in this country to engage in open, reasoned debate, or even promote the excellent work of a favourite charity, without being taken out of context, misquoted and generally mucked about. Perhaps it would be better if I kept quiet!

First time ive met you on the boards Wondered if you still checked them out.I know you are limited in what you say as unlike me people know who you are on the boards.So reapect that youi come back on.

OK fair enough you were out of the service at Uni when the Miners strike was on.One of the problems with Hitchens views is that the Police in this Country have a political role as well.When the chips are down they have to support the status quo-or leave.As was shown in the 80s.Even know this happens.One of the first uses of ASBOs was against political protesters.One of Blunketts anti-terror laws was used against peaceful protesters at an arms fair.

Blunketts Red Card Zones with their blanket curfew on the under 16s mean that in Central London(where their is a Red Card zone) Cinema managers are complaining that teenagers wont be able to see films in the West End.

I think Hitchens view was that the Police represented the sovereignity of the people-they swore an oath to uphold the law.As we live in a "democracy" that meant they were accountable in some peculairly British way.What Hitchens as his ilk are really nostalgic for is some mythical British society where we all doffed our caps to authority.That deferance ended in the 60s.Which is why Blair and Hitchens so hate the liberalism of the 60s.

It seems to me that Blunketts Law and Order policies are about attempting to turn the tide back to a pre 60s era.Blair said recently in a speech that the 60s Liberal consensus on Crime has had its day.

Thats why Im not happy with this Social work role that Blunkett is foisting on the police-ie frog marching kids off home after nine and giving their parents a good telling off.I dont think Blunkett will be happy until everyone is tagged.

As for Zero Tolerance periodically in Brixton its in the papers or local politicans go on about it.Seem to me that the actual practise is to have a Zero Tolerance crackdown every know and then to keep the hangers and floggers happy.Its not consistant.Ive seen it happen.Suddenly the police will be going up CHL checking every car etc.The theory of ZT is that cracking down on ASB and small crimes will discourage more serious criminality.

As Casper showed on a previous thread I started in New York this meant that Black and Ethnic minorites where targetted.

As Casper correctly pointed out the UK has one of the largest prison populations in Europe.Fear of Crime is whipped up to get votes.

 

[Lock&Light]

Casper Hauser knows a lot about Policing.On threads Ive started on Policing in Brixton hes come up with some really good posts.So back off with your Daily Mail fascist abuse.

Please let me say that I agree wholeheartedly with the above quotation, and while I have reservations concerning your next posting, Gramsci, I recognise it as a very useful, possibly brilliant, posting.

 

[Streathamite]

Because I don't like seeing graffiti, litter or dog shit and I don't like hearing loud music blaring from cars or people swearing in the street. It's insulting to people who try to keep their neighbourhoods looking decent and bad for community morale.

yes - but it ain't priority. Priority is CRIME. all the above are examples of...well, louts with no manners, basically. depressing, and plebbish. but ultimately, not a threat to me - or you.
and if this 'community' gives that much of a toss, it can clear up the dogshit itself!

 

[detective-boy]

A question for Mr Blunkett ...

Following on from Brian's "Observer's Book of CSOs", here is a question for Mr Blunkett if anyone happens to meet him (passing right-wing magazine publishers perhaps ...):

If CSOs have minimal powers compared with police officers, and if CSOs have minimal training (e.g. not even being able to be let loose directing traffic), and if CSOs cannot be used for other things (e.g. major disorder or murder enquiries) even if the wheel has well and truly fallen off, and if CSOs aren't to get involved in detaining violent people (as they have no batons / CS, etc and no training in using same) ... what is the business case for getting five of them for about the same cost that three fully trained PCs would cost?

If we got ten or twenty then I could just about see it but not five ...

And while you've got his ear ... ask him why he doesn't treat the Special Constabulary in the same way as the Territorial Army? Specials have always (a) come from the local community and (b) had full police powers. Why not give them proper training (they get more than CSOs now!!) and pay them proper hourly rates for the hours they work.

My experience of CSOs since their introduction has not been good - helping 2PCs restrain a violent prisoner whilst two CSOs just stood by watching on one occasion and intervening to help a woman being harangued and threatened by a drunken male (it turned out to be her boyfriend!) in the street while two CSOs simply walked past ("because she didn't ask us to help") on another.

I'm sure that CSOs are very nice, well-meaning people but ... er ... what exactly is the point of them?