A new workers party.... for workers only?.

[Binkie]

What workers are like

I once worked in a factory in Croydon producing TV sets on a production line. In rational Marxist terms, we were all workers. However, there was a whole range of political opinion amongst us - mostly conservative / reactionary / cynical / self-defeating / conformist - but some - not many - were politically aware - most of those on the Left. The Left were readers, debaters, thinkers, and were less offended by dissent and variety than the other workers. The other thing I noticed was that workers at work seem to be easier to get on with, more aware and generally more interesting and better mannered than when at home, in consumer mode, on the road or at a football match. Lucky to get more than grunts and screeches out of them then.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I agree with that. It is the key question and one that is usually avoided.
But "workers parties" are openly hostile to the views and aspirations of poor people.

Look at the "Lefts" views on Migration and Crime. Completely avoid the central issue of who suffers most and what most working class people want.

brought up on a council estate by a lorry driver and a dinner lady I was taught by the people I know, my experiences, and the education/indoctrination system that foreigners were responsible for the shortages in housing, jobs and a lot of other things that are wrong with society. I was also taught many other things about patriotism, knowing my place etc. I was involved in a discourse between the ages of 24 and 29 that convinced me intellectually that half of the information that was being fed to me by the people I knew, my experience, and the education/indoctrination system were wrong. What are you saying, as I should lie and pretend that I agree with people when they say things I disagree with? I am hostile to the ideas that hanging should be in reintroduced, that asylum seekers are responsible for shortages, and the monarchy that working-class people hold, but they have far more ideas they hold that I agree with. I prefer to concentrate on where I agree with people, and work together over them issues, rather than squabbling about what we disagree. Those issues can be resolved in the struggle in my opinion. Surely you must have witnessed on here how much SW is criticised for taking this pragmatic approach.

Respect ResistanceMP3

 

[Sue]

They're still out there, in a starry, starry place...

Yep. Can't help myself coming back here though -- think it's the car crash quality of the whole thing.

 

[Binkie]

MP3. Congratulations. You're one of the few people who have actually challenged the status quo of your surroundings. Paradoxically, I think you might be able to thank your parents for that. There were probably contradictions there - the old dialectic.. I know this sounds patronizing - but forget that petit-bourgeois concept. It's a compliment. I know how hard it is to change.

 

[Kameron]

I stapled fabric on to sofas for various department stores for half a year, was a till jockey for a bit and worked behind bars for four years part time 20 hours a week while at Uni. I don't believe there is a them and us, I've never met either. I think that Ave N. Ham is a parody.

I see that there is a study from Warwick or Kent which shows that only 30% of sons of fathers in the bottom 10% of the wage bracket stay in that region and that is the largest immobile group. Does anyone have a link for that by the way? I can't find it and it was published just recently as well.

 

[Sue]

MP3. Congratulations. You're one of the few people who have actually challenged the status quo of your surroundings. Paradoxically, I think you might be able to thank your parents for that. There were probably contradictions there - the old dialectic.. I know this sounds patronizing - but forget that petit-bourgeois concept. It's a compliment. I know how hard it is to change.

 

[Ave N. Ham]

but an interesting topic for debate would be why don't they? Why haven't they formed their own parties? Why do they not inundate already existing parties, and so they them working class? Why has it mostly been people like Karl Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Chomsky,who have dominated the thinking of how to fight for a truly democratic and classless society? From my experience it is because working-class people from backgrounds like yourself and me are normally to ground down by the fight for existence, which makes the fight for a new existence physically, mentally, and financially very very difficult.

WE tend to form unions. When have any of these political partites really challenged the british state? The times when the state has felt threatened it has come from strike action as far as I know anyway.

 

[TremulousTetra]

WE tend to form unions. When have any of these political partites really challenged the british state? The times when the state has felt threatened it has come from strike action as far as I know anyway.

. Well, you are absolutely right of course. The thing that really threatens the state and the ruling class, is when organised labour withdraws its labour. You are absolutely right that the emancipation of the working class, has to be the act of the working class. However, there is a paradox in expecting the unions to overthrow capitalism. Trade unions are not designed to overthrow capitalism, they are there to, and will only ever, fight for benefits for working-class people within the capitalist system. Now you might say, if this is what the working-class wants, to fight for the benefits it can get from within the capitalist system, then this is what it should have. And there is nothing wrong with that. Up to this moment in time that is exactly what the working-class has chose. And if they continue to do so that will be their prerogative. But revolutionary socialists, anarchists, and other revolutionary lefties offer an alternative strategy, a strategy which seeks to end this labour of Sisyphus. Whether the working class ever choose the strategy is down to them.

Respect ResistanceMP3

 

[TremulousTetra]

MP3. Congratulations. You're one of the few people who have actually challenged the status quo of your surroundings. Paradoxically, I think you might be able to thank your parents for that. There were probably contradictions there - the old dialectic.. I know this sounds patronizing - but forget that petit-bourgeois concept. It's a compliment. I know how hard it is to change.

I don't really think it was down to my parents. My father was a trade unionist, shop steward, but he said he was only a shop steward to stop the lefties from ruining the union. We think he voted Tory, not quite certain, and he was certainly soft Conservative in the 1970s. Probably a kind of Edward Heath type Conservative.

My mother was a mass of contradictions. Trade union shop steward whose father had been a member of the Communist Party. On the other hand my mother was openly nationalistic, pro monarchy, and quite racist (even to this day shockingly so at times.)

I think it was more to do with my experience of the 1970s and industrial struggle,,, and my life breaking off at a tangent in 1984 which left me financially stable and brought me to contact with members of the Socialist workers party when political education and cadrisation was placed at a premium.

 

[likesfish]

can't say have much truck with lefties some nice ideas but.......
but not exactly getting there hands on any power I mean marxism does'nt exactly have a glorious history does it ?
unfortuantly I think most people have given up on politics what ever happens politicans get in
not exactly sure theres much diffrence between tory or labour as for the SWP
one of the drones I asked what the point "we are the memory of the proletariat?"
I'm not going to spend 20 years attending meetings in a political party thats never going to change anything ever

 

[Ave N. Ham]

. Well, you are absolutely right of course. The thing that really threatens the state and the ruling class, is when organised labour withdraws its labour. You are absolutely right that the emancipation of the working class, has to be the act of the working class. However, there is a paradox in expecting the unions to overthrow capitalism. Trade unions are not designed to overthrow capitalism, they are there to, and will only ever, fight for benefits for working-class people within the capitalist system. Now you might say, if this is what the working-class wants, to fight for the benefits it can get from within the capitalist system, then this is what it should have. And there is nothing wrong with that. Up to this moment in time that is exactly what the working-class has chose. And if they continue to do so that will be their prerogative. But revolutionary socialists, anarchists, and other revolutionary lefties offer an alternative strategy, a strategy which seeks to end this labour of Sisyphus. Whether the working class ever choose the strategy is down to them.

Respect ResistanceMP3

Well I've recently got talking to some people who have been telling me about revolutionary unions that seems to make sense. Btw what the fuck is "Sisyphus"

 

[Blagsta]

Sisyphus - Greek myth. Bloke doomed to roll a rock up hill forever iirc.

 

[Ave N. Ham]

Sisyphus - Greek myth. Bloke doomed to roll a rock up hill forever iirc.

Ta, thought it was an STD!

 

[neprimerimye]

Now all of them besides the GP I would describe as working-class, wouldn't you? btw the GP probably lives one of the most working-class lifestyles, living with a poorly paid housing worker with one child in a terraced house in a particularly poor area, and is known by many of the patients in the drug user clinic she runs as "the hippie doctor" .

Respects ResistanceMP3

Even the most workerist of workers parties should have a few token intellectuals but hippies? No, never, you must expell the hippies!!

 

[audiotech]

Your 'level of political knowledge/debate on this board' is awe inspiring.

 

[Sue]

Your 'level of political knowledge/debate on this board' is awe inspiring.

Thanks. I'd like to think I know when someone is talking such bollox that there's no point even trying to reply...

 

[TremulousTetra]

Even the most workerist of workers parties should have a few token intellectuals but hippies? No, never, you must expell the hippies!!

I know, she was amusedly offended when she heard what the patients were calling her. A lovely woman, with an amazing level of energy.

 

[Binkie]

Another reality check that Sue won't have anything to say about:

The working class has as much of a vested interest in capitalism as the capitalists. The capitalists get profit out of the system; the workers get 'jobs'. In their (the workers') minds, that's the deal. They don't realize or don't want to know how exploited they are. They are easily bought off with wages, beer, TV, holidays, porn, religion and football. It's only when the (inherently unstable) capitalist system can't give them enough of these that they complain.

Having experience as a worker won't make you a revolutionary. For that you need morality and vision.

 

[kyser_soze]

Is it just me or has the level of political knowledge/debate on this board gone right downhill recently?

Most of the decent posters have left and the level of fuckwittery has increased exponentially.

If you mean 'less cock waving and shouting down of anyone who didn't know Joe Tranmere from the Socialism WOW! Conference and his amazing impassioned speech for the w/c to rise up' then yes, the level of 'political knowledge' has decreased.

working-class. those whose sold Labour is supervised.

That would ultimately include the definition of middle class as well - a manager who can hire an fire has been hired by someone on par or superior to him, can still be sacked arbitrarily and has to sell his labour on the jobs market. The key difference between the m/c and w/c is in the level of protection that their skills afford them in the marketplace, and this is usually due to extended periods ofacademic or job related training.

Incidentally - would 'working class' mean you actually have to work for a living as well? I saw a letter in the Obs a couple of weeks ago from someone pointing out that they were proud to be working class and were annoyed that they were lumped in with someone who has never worked and has no inclination to ever work.

 

[dennisr]

Another reality check that Sue won't have anything to say about:

The working class has as much of a vested interest in capitalism as the capitalists. The capitalists get profit out of the system; the workers get 'jobs'. In their (the workers') minds, that's the deal. They don't realize or don't want to know how exploited they are. They are easily bought off with wages, beer, TV, holidays, porn, religion and football. It's only when the (inherently unstable) capitalist system can't give them enough of these that they complain.

Having experience as a worker won't make you a revolutionary. For that you need morality and vision.

thats right binkie and its your morality and vision they are all waiting for (except for the billions worldwide who are not needed, who don't get jobs and are therefore 'expendable' because of the way this system works - but hey, who gives a feck about them...) Workers are happy little job doers with thier beer, tv and porn - they never rise up. We are thicker than fenceposts. Tens of thousands have never given thier lives up in an attempt to improve or at least defend thier miserable existences. They have never fought, struggled or campaigned. everything has been given to them on a plate - look at the Iraqis now getting 'democracy' (and a few - well 10,000+ - innocent 'casualties' in the process - but lets not make a fuss about that, hey, thats progress...). We never fought for the vote, pensions, unemployment insurance, job security, the nhs, free education etc etc in this country even this was all handed to us by our munificent rulers. there has not been endless strike waves, revolutions, social struggles. Its all lovely jubbly and binkie knows best and we all just happy to 'be' man! (after all it is in our interests...). "Hurray" we all shout "those oh so moral middle classes have come to save us from ourselves"


and then people like 'reality check' binkie wonder why us immoral, stupid working class people think they talk out thier arseholes...

 

[Binkie]

Dennisr, that would be irony then...

 

[dennisr]

Dennisr, that would be irony then...

Ahh, no - not bright enough for irony - i mean every word

 

[Binkie]

* *

 

[poster342002]

well in the last branch I was in we had two unemployed, one primary school teacher, one BT worker, two housing workers, one physiotherapist, one nurse, one further education teacher, one social worker and one GP. Now all of them besides the GP I would describe as working-class, wouldn't you?

No.

 

[tbaldwin]

brought up on a council estate by a lorry driver and a dinner lady I was taught by the people I know, my experiences, and the education/indoctrination system that foreigners were responsible for the shortages in housing, jobs and a lot of other things that are wrong with society. I was also taught many other things about patriotism, knowing my place etc. I was involved in a discourse between the ages of 24 and 29 that convinced me intellectually that half of the information that was being fed to me by the people I knew, my experience, and the education/indoctrination system were wrong. What are you saying, as I should lie and pretend that I agree with people when they say things I disagree with? I am hostile to the ideas that hanging should be in reintroduced, that asylum seekers are responsible for shortages, and the monarchy that working-class people hold, but they have far more ideas they hold that I agree with. I prefer to concentrate on where I agree with people, and work together over them issues, rather than squabbling about what we disagree. Those issues can be resolved in the struggle in my opinion. Surely you must have witnessed on here how much SW is criticised for taking this pragmatic approach.

Respect ResistanceMP3

I'm a closetpragmatist too!
RMP 3 A lot of people rebel against what the mainstream media say.
I think its good as far as it goes BUT they end up with very reactionary politics that dismisses populism as some kind of a disease...
I think too often the reaction against media lies is illthought through.
Yes the media Daily Mail etc do talk a lot of shit about Immigration and Crime etc but too often the reaction to that is just as stupid and unthinking. And that only serves to distance the Left from those who would most benefit from Socialism.
New Labours slogan of "Tough on Crime and Tough on the Causes of Crime" struck a chord with people who were previously dubious about voting Labour.
The Left needs to be honest about its failures and start to rengage withordinary people and show respect for their views and aspirations.

 

[Sue]

If you mean 'less cock waving and shouting down of anyone who didn't know Joe Tranmere from the Socialism WOW! Conference and his amazing impassioned speech for the w/c to rise up' then yes, the level of 'political knowledge' has decreased.

I mean 'fewer people knowing what they're talking about and more people talking complete nonsense...'

Thing is, I used to find it very interesting on here and learned a lot from lots of different posters. Now the majority of people here seem to have all the political sophistication of a 17-year-old SWPer. And to be honest, I can't really be bothered to waste my time getting embroiled in debating/explaining stuff that has already been done to death before -- and by more clued-up posters than me.

Think it is a shame though.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Perhaps you should go out and sample the world outside of internet forums then - these places are by their very design going to be chockablock full of people who don't actually partake in real political activity and choose instead to skulk around talking about it and quoting other 'intellectuals'.

There's no point just sitting here complaining.

 

[Sue]

Perhaps you should go out and sample the world outside of internet forums then - these places are by their very design going to be chockablock full of people who don't actually partake in real political activity and choose instead to skulk around talking about it and quoting other 'intellectuals'.

There's no point just sitting here complaining.

Was it really only yesterday you joined? Maybe a tad early to be giving advice to people you know nothing about...?

 

[Squatticus]

What a load of bollocks.

How can somebody who is not working class understand the lives of working class people better than those who live those lives?

I hope you never have an illness, 'cause I assume on that basis your going to claim a better understanding of your e.g. tumor than the doctors!

 

[tbaldwin]

I hope you never have an illness, 'cause I assume on that basis your going to claim a better understanding of your e.g. tumor than the doctors!

I hate to stick up for InBloom BUT if you ever had a tumour you might realise that people often understand more than their doctors. The doctor may understand it on paper but understanding it on paper and having one in reality is very different.There are a few good doctors who would be very clear that this is the case.

People like Tony Benn,Paul Foot etc had a academic knowledge of the working class but that is very different from real knowledge.