A new workers party.... for workers only?.

[neprimerimye]

I have never met anyone from the SWP that comes from my background, I dont doubt that there is but if you walk round town and city precincts where they are flogging their Newspapers you will probably find out that most of them have never seen a council estate so to speak, this is just something Ive noticed over the years, an observation.

I'm pretty hostile politically to the SWP these days but most of the people I knew in the SWP were from working class backgrounds.

Even now most members of the sect are w/c. Which is more than can be said of a large chunck of the misleadership.

The problem with the SWP is its populist politics not the class composition of the group.

 

[northernhord]

so you are applying a different definition to me. You are perfectly entitled to. But we're not talking about the same thing. to be fair to I don't think there will ever be a political party whose members only come from council estates.

Rmp3

I wouldnt want to find a party exclusively made up of peeps from council estates I would just like them have more control and power in their lives.
Its always a thorny old argument class issues, I have tended to be a bit on the defensive usually coming from a Council estate myself and seeing and expeirencing inequality and exclusion, but at the end of the day whatever works is best

 

[MatthewCuffe]

Once New Labour has been destroyed, it will be right to rejuvenate the party that looks after working-class people.

The most important addition in terms of social class under New Labour has been the growth of an underclass.

It is all very well for us to believe we live in a Britain no longer burdened by social class, and hence that we require a politics without social class.

Unfortunately, for that to be the case, we would have to live in a Britain no longer burdened by social class.

The word 'chav', for example, is a symptom of the sustained elimination of pride in working-class life since 1979, not the elimination of working-class life (despite many attempts).

Just changing the wording does not, cannot, and will not alter the socio-economic realities.

Building luxury apartments on every available plot of land will not make the whole country middle-class.

 

[Wilf]

join Socialist-Worker. That is a workers party, full of workers.
light blue touch paper. Stands well back.

ResistanceMP3

Yes, your'e right - worker ants. Quick chemical signal wafts out and all the paper sellers dash home to put their Respect clothes on and pour out from the anthill once more bearing election leaflets. I heard all about it on the telly from that David Attenborough bloke.

 

[TremulousTetra]

pesky double posts

 

[TremulousTetra]

I wouldnt want to find a party exclusively made up of peeps from council estates I would just like them have more control and power in their lives.
Its always a thorny old argument class issues, I have tended to be a bit on the defensive usually coming from a Council estate myself and seeing and expeirencing inequality and exclusion, but at the end of the day whatever works is best

well I come from a working-class council estate myself, so I know exactly why you would be wary of such accents. I also had to wrestle with this issue perceiving that the majority of the people in most political organisations including SW were not from the 'lower' working-class background that I came from. but at the end of the day whatever works is best. is SW the best? I agree with nep, the majorirty of SW are working class. He may be proved right that they are pursuing the wrong strategy, but I have not yet witnessed anybody pursuing a better strategy. if I do, I will join them.

Respect ResistanceMP3

PS. The key question to me is not why are there middle-class people in workers parties, but why aren't there more poor people in workers parties?

 

[northernhord]

well I come from a working-class council estate myself, so I know exactly why you would be wary of such accents. I also had to wrestle with this issue perceiving that the majority of the people in most political organisations including SW were not from the 'lower' working-class background that I came from. but at the end of the day whatever works is best. is SW the best? I agree with nep, the majorirty of SW are working class. He may be proved right that they are pursuing the wrong strategy, but I have not yet witnessed anybody pursuing a better strategy. if I do, I will join them.

Respect ResistanceMP3

PS. The key question to me is not why are there middle-class people in workers parties, but why aren't there more poor people in workers parties?

That would certainly make things a lot better if peeps from our background did get involved or even started their own parties based on their needs

 

[Paul_N17]

How does the IWCA ensure it only has working class members? how do you get the impression the IWCA is the nearest the one to what you describe?

Well they don't appear to bar non-working class people from joining but they do seem to want to discourage this. When you go to join on their site, you're met with :

"Membership of the IWCA is open to all working class people who agree with our aims"

and under the FAQ they have the following :

"Can anyone join the IWCA?

Yes the IWCA is open to any working class person in Britain. This does not mean middle class people are excluded. On the contrary we welcome them as allies, but at the same time the class character of the IWCA, if it is to function politically, must remain overwhelmingly a working class one. So accommodating working class people will be our primary goal"

It's just a shame that they're a bit too short termism for my liking.

 

[neprimerimye]

Well they don't appear to bar non-working class people from joining but they do seem to want to discourage this.

Although it doesn't stop them having members who vote for the Lib Dems.

 

[nightbreed]

If you are a workers party why dont you recruit workers??

There are two classes -owners of the means of production, the capitalist, and wage labourers, the proletariat. Middle , lower middle, middle upper whatever , self employed small business men are classisfied as petit bourgeious , from what I have been led to understand.

Most SWP members I know are either teachers , social workers, civil servants or work for charities ( in other words ex students). Not generally the type of people associated with the industrial proletariat ,the real challenge to the capitalist class.I await replies saying that the the industrial proletariat are dead, or maybe they are going through another 'downturn '.
The SWP and the other lefts dont seem to address this membership problem.

 

[tbaldwin]

PS. The key question to me is not why are there middle-class people in workers parties, but why aren't there more poor people in workers parties?

I agree with that. It is the key question and one that is usually avoided.
But "workers parties" are openly hostile to the views and aspirations of poor people.

Look at the "Lefts" views on Migration and Crime. Completely avoid the central issue of who suffers most and what most working class people want.

 

[Sue]

What's so great about council estates - or current working class culture / beliefs? The only two attributes I reckon working class people excel in are

• they produce everything of value
• they're generally more honest than the rest

As far as their political opinions go, usually not worth listening to..

And there we have it in a nutshell...

 

[Sue]

Although it doesn't stop them having members who vote for the Lib Dems.

Really? Do tell...

 

[Ave N. Ham]

Everytime I've come across a member of a left wing party I've felt like I was being lectured. Some snotty student only just left mummy & daddy telling me how to think. Seems to me all politicdal parties are run by the middle class.

 

[fractionMan]

Class is an middle class construct. It has little value/use even in the abstract.

*runs*

 

[Ave N. Ham]

bollocks. You saying that me and that twat of a boss of mine are not of a different class? Bollocks again.

 

[Sue]

Ave N Ham, think our friend Binkie sums that mindset up perfectly...

Is it necessarily true that all workers know more about being a worker than

• any historian
• any political scientist
• any sociologist
• any philosopher
• any middle class person
• any ruling class person
• any peasant

I don't think so.

 

[In Bloom]

Is it necessarily true that all workers know more about being a worker than

• any historian
• any political scientist
• any sociologist
• any philosopher
• any middle class person
• any ruling class person
• any peasant

I don't think so.

What a load of bollocks.

How can somebody who is not working class understand the lives of working class people better than those who live those lives?

This is why nobody likes a liberal.

 

[In Bloom]

Everytime I've come across a member of a left wing party I've felt like I was being lectured. Some snotty student only just left mummy & daddy telling me how to think. Seems to me all politicdal parties are run by the middle class.

"The militant who claims to place himself at the service of the proletariat ( "the workers are our masters" Geismar [2] ), only places himself at the service of the idea that he has of the proletariat's interests. Thus by a paradox which is only apparent, in truly putting oneself at the service of oneself one comes back to helping others, and doing so on a class basis, while in placing oneself at the service of others one comes to protect a personal hierarchical position."
http://www.geocities.com/~johngray/milititl.htm

 

[Kameron]

How can somebody who is not working class understand the lives of working class people better than those who live those lives?

It has to be very small minded to think that the only way you can understand something is to live it. It is a fallacy to intuit from the axiom that no one can understand you are as well as you understand yourself that no one understands your social class (or any other group) as a member of the group does especially when it as large and disparate as the application you are attempting here.

 

[Sue]

Is it just me or has the level of political knowledge/debate on this board gone right downhill recently?

Most of the decent posters have left and the level of fuckwittery has increased exponentially.

 

[Binkie]

Seems about the same to me..

 

[Sue]

Seems about the same to me..

Looking at your previous posts on this thread, I'm really not surprised.

 

[In Bloom]

It has to be very small minded to think that the only way you can understand something is to live it. It is a fallacy to intuit from the axiom that no one can understand you are as well as you understand yourself that no one understands your social class (or any other group) as a member of the group does especially when it as large and disparate as the application you are attempting here.

What are you gibbering about?

Exactly how does it follow that somebody who is not working class can understand the experiences of working class people better than the workers themselves? If you have never experienced alienation, exploitation and oppression you can never fully understand what it is like to be alienated, exploited or oppressed.

 

[Binkie]

Sue, don't know how to take that..

 

[In Bloom]

Is it just me or has the level of political knowledge/debate on this board gone right downhill recently?

Most of the decent posters have left and the level of fuckwittery has increased exponentially.

They're still out there, in a starry, starry place...

 

[TremulousTetra]

That would certainly make things a lot better if peeps from our background did get involved or even started their own parties based on their needs

but an interesting topic for debate would be why don't they? Why haven't they formed their own parties? Why do they not inundate already existing parties, and so they them working class? Why has it mostly been people like Karl Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Chomsky,who have dominated the thinking of how to fight for a truly democratic and classless society? From my experience it is because working-class people from backgrounds like yourself and me are normally to ground down by the fight for existence, which makes the fight for a new existence physically, mentally, and financially very very difficult.

having said all that, my experience of SW is that I do not know many now, that I would describe middle-class. The vast majority are either unemployed or work in jobs that fit in the description I gave above of working class. I will readily admit that many of them have come from backgrounds and working occupations that would at one time have been considered middle-class, but as I said earlier engineers were once considered middle-class, and many of those occupations like secretary, housing worker, higher education lecturer, teacher etc etc have gone through a proletarianisation process.

Respects ResistanceMP3

 

[TremulousTetra]

There are two classes -owners of the means of production, the capitalist, and wage labourers, the proletariat. Middle , lower middle, middle upper whatever , self employed small business men are classisfied as petit bourgeious , from what I have been led to understand.

Most SWP members I know are either teachers , social workers, civil servants or work for charities ( in other words ex students). Not generally the type of people associated with the industrial proletariat ,the real challenge to the capitalist class.I await replies saying that the the industrial proletariat are dead, or maybe they are going through another 'downturn '.
The SWP and the other lefts dont seem to address this membership problem.

well in the last branch I was in we had two unemployed, one primary school teacher, one BT worker, two housing workers, one physiotherapist, one nurse, one further education teacher, one social worker and one GP. Now all of them besides the GP I would describe as working-class, wouldn't you? btw the GP probably lives one of the most working-class lifestyles, living with a poorly paid housing worker with one child in a terraced house in a particularly poor area, and is known by many of the patients in the drug user clinic she runs as "the hippie doctor" .

Respects ResistanceMP3

 

[Kameron]

Exactly how does it follow that somebody who is not working class can understand the experiences of working class people better than the workers themselves? If you have never experienced alienation, exploitation and oppression you can never fully understand what it is like to be alienated, exploited or oppressed.

I don't buy that any one member of the group can stand up and claim to understand the group. On this basis the French and Russian aristocracy should be able to understand you plight as you would have it. Shared experience turns out not to be the key to understanding.

 

[In Bloom]

I don't buy that any one member of the group can stand up and claim to understand the group. On this basis the French and Russian aristocracy should be able to understand you plight as you would have it. Shared experience turns out not to be the key to understanding.

Where did I say that?

The point is that working class people do have experiences in common, which are the experiences which define them as working class. Somebody who has not had those experiences cannot understand what it is like to be working class as somebody who has, it's a fact.

And I have absolutely no idea where that French and Russian aristocracy thing comes from. Are you under the impression that I'm an aristo of some sort?