A Modest Proposal for the Left...

[chilango]

That's not an answer to the question, is it?

No its not.

Bit pointless for the two of us to sit here and agree on capitalism being the root cause of the problem though, innit?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Have you evr been in a left group?

There are insane amounts of action takling place.

Introspection?

Don't think so.

Well, I dunno, I don't go around the country doing surveys. Most of the groups I've been around personally seemed to be fairly busy, though on Urban of course I seem to see daily threads about how "the left" do nothing, and I've never seen any shortage of "what is the future of the left in a changing world" sort of stuff. Depends what you mean by "the left"; left-wing people or left-wing activists?

 

[Spion]

Of course, people may not be very receptive at the moment why?

I've no disagreement with the ideas of the left, myself. Why do you think the left isn't succesful?

In the UK, a combination of having been in a very long period of economic growth in a relatively rich country combined with political solutions that on the far left are dominated by an inability to put forward a clear programme. The SWP, for eg, always ends up tailing behind the constituency of the w/c that it wants to recruit and fails to say what is needed to win struggles as they arise.

In other countries I suspect w/c people would be more receptive, but lack any far left with even the influence of the SWP. These fellahs, for example, have been doing some amazing things in the past couple of years

http://www.merip.org/mero/mero092907.html

 

[Spion]

No its not.

Bit pointless for the two of us to sit here and agree on capitalism being the root cause of the problem though, innit?

I had no idea you saw capitalism in that way. You hadn't said.

 

[bluestreak]

The mock-left? I miss the cod-left, you really knew where you were with those buggers.

 

[chilango]

In the UK, a combination of having been in a very long period of economic growth in a relatively rich country combined with political solutions that on the far left are dominated by an inability to put forward a clear programme. The SWP, for eg, always ends up tailing behind the constituency of the w/c that it wants to recruit and fails to say what is needed to win struggles as they arise.

In other countries I suspect w/c people would be more receptive, but lack any far left with even the influence of the SWP. These fellahs, for example, have been doing some amazing things in the past couple of years

http://www.merip.org/mero/mero092907.html

Much of the world has a sizeable left presence. Britain is one of the wekare lefts i've experienced. A big part of that is historiacal/cultural I'm sure. But the tailing of the Labour Party for years I think was really damaging.

I don't agrre on the need for a clear programme, but would agree that a coherent and effective strategy for change needs to be on offer.

 

[chilango]

Well, I dunno, I don't go around the country doing surveys. Most of the groups I've been around personally seemed to be fairly busy, though on Urban of course I seem to see daily threads about how "the left" do nothing, and I've never seen any shortage of "what is the future of the left in a changing world" sort of stuff. Depends what you mean by "the left"; left-wing people or left-wing activists?

I'm talking about the "organised left". groups etc. Not people holding opinions.

 

[Spion]

I don't agrre on the need for a clear programme

Then, IMO, you are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. if you don't know what you want others will and you will effectively tail them or will separate yourself from any struggles that arise because you don't like what they are saying

but would agree that a coherent and effective strategy for change needs to be on offer.

Well, what's your strategy? Can you give us any idea?

 

[chilango]

Then, IMO, you are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. if you don't know what you want others will and you will effectively tail them or will separate yourself from any struggles that arise because you don't like what they are saying


The problem though is, people become obsessed with details of this programme. How many lefty bunfights have there been about this?

and, the real world doesn't always end up fitting with the programme.

Well, what's your strategy? Can you give us any idea?

From my thread on this very question...

A sensible answer to my own question....

I think that education is very important.

Educating people to educate themselves if you like.

That can be done via campaigns, via political groups, via action, via school, the WEA etc.

Knowledge is, as they say, power.

...and the abilty to engage with the world around you.

And then, and then, people, individuals, communities, workplaces etc. can start to try and shape the conditions of their lives.

Some of which can be done through self-organisation and mutual aid. Some through negotiation with authority, some through confrontation with authority and ultimately through the abolition/replacement of authority.

In practical terms this means learning and grassroots organisation. Vehicles for this are many and varied.

i know its vague....as it happens I'm giving the Green Party a go as one of the possible vehicles for change.

 

[Spion]

The problem though is, people become obsessed with details of this programme. How many lefty bunfights have there been about this?

I think you have to get over that. It's inevitable. As a relatively small number of people try to get to grips with issues which existing society does not study they are bound to disagree. But capitalism is quite young, most of the world is ill-developed and ill-educated and to despair at the revolutionary left for not sorting things out just because one has suddenly had the scales lifted from ones eyes in your youth is egotistical and unrealistic. To overthrow capitalism is a project that may take centuries or, as happened in Russia, may go from seemingly unimportant arguments to smashing the state within less than a decade.

This century will bring world war and depression. I am sure opportunities will arise

know its vague....as it happens I'm giving the Green Party a go as one of the possible vehicles for change

LOL

 

[chilango]

LOL

What's so funny?

 

[poster342002]

To overthrow capitalism is a project that may take centuries or, as happened in Russia, may go from seemingly unimportant arguments to smashing the state within less than a decade.

...followed by the rapid setting-up of an even worse one. Quite a feat considering the ghastliness of the Tsar's regime.

This century will bring world war and depression. I am sure opportunities will arise

If there's world war, there won't be the opportunity to do anything ever again. That'd be it - end. Finito.

 

[Spion]

What's so funny?

I thought you were against capitalism?

 

[Spion]

...followed by the rapid setting-up of an even worse one. Quite a feat considering the ghastliness of the Tsar's regime.

But perhaps no surprise in a country where 20% of the population could read, 80% of it were poor peasants and civil war had reduced its productivity to a tiny fraction of pre-rev levels

...If there's world war, there won't be the opportunity to do anything ever again. That'd be it - end. Finito.

Why? And how do you propose we avoid war in the first place, Einstein?

You can say nothing positive, you bring no learning to the board, no suggestions. You're a either a black hole of a personailty or a right wing shill

 

[poster342002]

But perhaps no surprise in a country where 20% of the population could read, 80% of it were poor peasants and civil war had reduced its productivity to a tiny fraction of pre-rev levels

Well, that justified shutting down grassroots democracy, free speach and indepandant workers orgs then. They were all so fick they needed good old cleaver Lenin to tell them what to say, do and think.

 

[poster342002]

Why? And how do you propose we avoid war in the first place, Einstein?

I'm not the one predicting it and thinking "opprotunities" would arise out of it. Opportunities for what, prey tell? Turning bright green in the dark?.

You can say nothing positive, you bring no learning to the board, no suggestions. You're a either a black hole of a personailty or a right wing shill

Whereas you're the fount of all wisdom round here, of course.

I like the tired old "right wing" mud-slinging act again, btw. What the fuck a "shill" is, I don't know, however...

 

[urbanrevolt]

In response to OP clearly taking a step back in the sense of seeing how other people see and relate to the organised left is valuable as is working with ordinary people.

However, I think some campaigning and activity is necessary e.g. against a factory closure, against a deportation, against a school closure whatever arises and this will bring us into contact with more people.

Of course ceaseless activity can be used to stop people from thinking and it is toowearing anyway. I'm also against purely party-building activity unless it's integrated into other campaigns and subordinate to it. The class struggle is what matters.

But some activity is necessary both in itself and to give a sense of perspective- these are real struggles, real people etc.

 

[urbanrevolt]

In response to OP clearly taking a step back in the sense of seeing how other people see and relate to the organised left is valuable as is working with ordinary people.

However, I think some campaigning and activity is necessary e.g. against a factory closure, against a deportation, against a school closure whatever arises and this will bring us into contact with more people.

Of course ceaseless activity can be used to stop people from thinking and it is toowearing anyway. I'm also against purely party-building activity unless it's integrated into other campaigns and subordinate to it. The class struggle is what matters.

But some activity is necessary both in itself and to give a sense of perspective- these are real struggles, real people etc.

 

[Spion]

Well, that justified shutting down grassroots democracy, free speach and indepandant workers orgs then. They were all so fick they needed good old cleaver Lenin to tell them what to say, do and think.

At which point would you have there shouldn't have been a revolution in Russia exactly?

 

[poster342002]

At which point would you have there shouldn't have been a revolution in Russia exactly?

There should have been a workers revoution in Russia. Shame they got a coup-d'etat by a handfull of middleclass thugs instead ("meet the new boss") that merely served to discredit the very name of socialism right up to today.

 

[Spion]

There should have been a workers revoution in Russia. Shame they got a coup-d'etat by a handfull of middleclass thugs instead

You don't have a clue. Armed worker in workers councils seized power all across Russia

 

[poster342002]

You don't have a clue. Armed worker in workers councils seized power all across Russia

I don't beleive that was anywhere near as widespread as we're led to beleive. A few gangs of armed-workers on instruction from the Bolsheviks may have taken over in a few places (protection racket-syle) and then made it very clear who the new bosses of the main bulk of workers were. The actuall rank-and-file workers were totally subordiante to this new ruling class. Same old same old.

A workers revolution it was not - it wouldn't have allowed a cyncical thuggish clique like that of Lenin, Trotski and then Stalin to muscle in as the new, self-interested boss class.

 

[Spion]

And your evidence for this is?

 

[poster342002]

And your evidence for this is?

A few gulags full of dead workers proof enough for you?

 

[chilango]

I thought you were against capitalism?

Right.

Of course the Greens can only go so far. Reformism if you like, but I think we need to travel down that road for a while because

a) Certain environmental issues are pressing enough for short term reforms to be needed whislt waiting for ultimate solutions.

b) The British population are not receptive to the ideas of the revolutionary at the moment. Yet there are day to day improvements that are receptive to via the Green Party.

 

[chilango]

In response to OP clearly taking a step back in the sense of seeing how other people see and relate to the organised left is valuable as is working with ordinary people.

However, I think some campaigning and activity is necessary e.g. against a factory closure, against a deportation, against a school closure whatever arises and this will bring us into contact with more people.

Of course ceaseless activity can be used to stop people from thinking and it is toowearing anyway. I'm also against purely party-building activity unless it's integrated into other campaigns and subordinate to it. The class struggle is what matters.

But some activity is necessary both in itself and to give a sense of perspective- these are real struggles, real people etc.

Thank you.

A considered answer.

Do you think the situation you describe is what we have now?

 

[Spion]

A few gulags full of dead workers proof enough for you?

No. Proof that the seizure of power was as you describe please

 

[poster342002]

No. Proof that the seizure of power was as you describe please

You prove it was as you describe.

 

[nightbreed]

How about

Leave college/university.

Get job in real world

come back at unity conference in one year to relate workplace experience to the shit john rees tells them

build revolutionary party and take over commanding heights of the economy

go to bed

should sort the left out.

 

[Spion]

You prove it was as you describe.

I didn't think the organisation of workers in soviets, soldiers mutinying and the destruction of the Tsar's state were in dispute, but hey Poster knows better