A Libertines Poll

[Dubversion]

Dub - I too have been in the Biz for most of my life, and I too claim to have have the abilty to listen and observe objectively.

And I agree that we might not feel as if our influences are fixed, but I would argue that our tastes are pretty fixed: we know what we prefer to isten to. I know what my real preferences are - what I listen to for fun and enjoyment, what I gravitate towards.

Like, I'll go to see The Fratellis, and likely I'll "get" it. But I know I'm not going to listen to them myself, for fun and enjoyment. I get Radiohead, but I'm not a fan; I get the Smiths but I'm not a fan; I get Goldfrapp but they leave me cold...

Similarly with the Libs - I get it, but I'm no fan. I'm so struck by the look and sound of young bands, and how clearly post-Libs they are.

Maybe the difference between us is that while I don't listen to recorded music every day, I'm out watching live music as often as I can (several times a week). Maybe our difference of opinion arises from this?
.

but my tastes don't enter into this, as i've tried to point out. I can see the (limited) appeal of the Libertines but I don't see them as being remarkable in any sense. There are other bands who are more popular, more innovative, more influential, etc, than the Libertines. This has nothing to do with taste - i probably actually like the Libertines more than these other acts, for what it's worth.

 

[story]

In 5 or 10 years time I just cannot imagine any musicians claiming that they were influenced by The Libertines music , the image possibly yes , every music lover in their late teens has always needed someone or some band to claim as there own , it is our duty as grown-ups to point out that they are shit.

Hmm. I;d agree with this, except that when I see these youngster bands - the ones who won't go anywhere but are like nurseries for future bands - they are playing post-Lib music. More so than Arctic Monkeys, or Franz Ferdinand, who were both huge in their way. (see, saying "were" already.... the Libs don't even exist anywmore and we're still arguing the toss about them.)

 

[Dubversion]

i think we're moving from the original point, anyway. I've never debated that - as innit said - the libertines have some influence in recent years. It was the claim that they are the most influential band of the last 25 years which I had an entirely understandable issue with.

 

[story]

but my tastes don't enter into this, as i've tried to point out. I can see the (limited) appeal of the Libertines but I don't see them as being remarkable in any sense. There are other bands who are more popular, more innovative, more influential, etc, than the Libertines. This has nothing to do with taste - i probably actually like the Libertines more than these other acts, for what it's worth.

and my taste is not a factor either - I expressed myself poorly, perhaps.

I don't like them much either. Our difference of opinion is that while I think that they have been influential, and argue that their influence will ripple out, you think that they have not been influential at all.

 

[Dubversion]

no, i never ever said they weren't influential at all

 

[northernhord]

No, they are not the most importent band of the last 25 years, anyone who thinks they are is choosing to ignore that punk ever happened.
During the last 40 years of 'outsider' rock music there has been a fair number of Pete Doherties about, so there is nothing new or importent about him or them.

 

[hammerntongues]

I think there seems to be more of a need from the music press to find the next big thing than there used to be , way before it is deserved . You can only look back after a reasonable period of time and say a style or band has been influential or not . Yes the fashion side of the music business has always been very important , in fact I would go as far as to say that the fashion side of any new music scene is probably more important than the music itself in terms of its influence on Mr average on the High St.

nobody at the top of their particular cultural tree can ever just be GOOD anymore they have to be GENIUS , it runs through sport , particularly football , we seem to have lost our perspective somewhere.

 

[story]

i think we're moving from the original point, anyway. I've never debated that - as innit said - the libertines have some influence in recent years. It was the claim that they are the most influential band of the last 25 years which I had an entirely understandable issue with.

Oh, I do not at all agree with that claim. It's hyperbole.

But then, as the other thread is showing - can that really be said of any band that formed in the last 25 years...

 

[Dubversion]

the NME has been scrabbling since Madchester, Grunge and Britpop for a movement with sufficient longevity to halt the downward slide that has already seen off Sounds and the Melody Maker, Select etc.

So, yes, they'll champion anything they can prematurely in the hope that it catches on (nu-rave anyone? )

but in the meantime the metal press trundles on quite happily

 

[Dubversion]

Oh, I do not at all agree with that claim. It's hyperbole.

But then, as the other thread is showing - can that really be said of any band that formed in the last 25 years...

well it would be tricky, but you could come up with a handful of likely contenders. The Libertines wouldn't make any sensible Top 50 though, IMO.

 

[story]

no, i never ever said they weren't influential at all

you're right, you didn't. sorry

 

[Dubversion]

you can hear the Libertines influence in a few bands, some of whom have been mentioned. But the longevity of THOSE bands, and of the the Libs influence itself, is doubtful. They need to have influenced a shitload of bands who themselves are successful and go on to influence a shitload MORE bands, to count alongside Public Enemy, Kraftwerk, The Clash, The Smiths etc.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Innit.. the sneering coz someone actually has passion for a band/musician is pretty foul... no great fan of the libertines/doherty, but i'd prefer people were really into something rather than just being slightly into lots of different things..

I don't think it's Cheesy's passion that is being ridiculed, it's the hyperbolic claims along the lines of "best band in the last 25 years" for a band who are, when all is said and done, a footnote in British music history.

I mean, sorry, but I can think of literally a gross of bands more deserving of the "best band in the last 25 years" label.

 

[story]

but my tastes don't enter into this, as i've tried to point out. I can see the (limited) appeal of the Libertines but I don't see them as being remarkable in any sense. There are other bands who are more popular, more innovative, more influential, etc, than the Libertines. This has nothing to do with taste - i probably actually like the Libertines more than these other acts, for what it's worth.

Well musically, no they're not remarkable. They did something fairly interesting with the rythm section being pushed into the background - that stood out for me as different and interesting, but it was a live thing and didn't translate to the recordings.

But they did shake up the live music scene in a remarkable way. The clear devotion and passion exibited by the band, both to each other and to the musical experience (and that car-crash of a divorce between Barat and Doherty - good copy, you must admit). The way they totally and utterly embraced the live experience, and brought their audiences into it - that had been missing for a while; the tattoos - everyone's doing that now . The devotion they inspired in their audience was in turn an inspiration both to other bands who wanted that for themselves, and for audiences who wanted to experience that for themselves. Underage live clubs sprang up in their wake.... a lot of changes followed them.

Whether or not these things would have happened without the Libs.... well, I suggest that the time was ripe for such a shake up to occur anyway. If it hadn't been the Libs, it wold have been someone else. But it wasn't someone else, it was Pete and Carl and their strange passionate stuff that managed to get there and do it.

So yes, they were remarkable, if not for the music necesarily, then for the way they re-awoke public passion for whole live music thing.

 

[story]

you can hear the Libertines influence in a few bands, some of whom have been mentioned. But the longevity of THOSE bands, and of the the Libs influence itself, is doubtful. They need to have influenced a shitload of bands who themselves are successful and go on to influence a shitload MORE bands, to count alongside Public Enemy, Kraftwerk, The Clash, The Smiths etc.

I reckon it's too soon to tell. Those kiddies who will be influenced are still at college, still learning to play the guitar, still working out what a middle eight is.

And I think that you cna't compare now to then. The way we listened to music, the way we explored music was very different then. Those bands all had careers that spanned many of our growing up years.

 

[Iam]

You obviously know a different live scene to me.

 

[girasol]

I think story makes an interesting point, and only time will tell...

Wasn't Velvet Underground's importance acknowledged only years later? And commercially they weren't successful at all, when they were first around.

(Not saying that's the case with The Libertines, their album left me cold, there were 3 ok songs in there, but I can see story's point...)

 

[story]

You obviously know a different live scene to me.

And this is largely the point, even if you are joking.

The live scene is, by it's very nature, partisan. Generally, people only go to see what they know. They're not going to invest a whole evening, and (if they're drinking) possibly the next day being hungover, plus all the money and time and energy it takes to go to see something, on the off-chance that it might be good.

However - what I am now seeing is kids doing exactly that: because it might be good, because live music is what turns them on just now. And everyone in the audience is either in a band, or with a band, or wanting to.

Like I said, it might not be that the Libs have made music that will survive as "important", but somehow they managed to tap into something, and give it back in spades. In that respect, I argue that they have been, and continue to be, influential.

 

[Iam]

And this is largely the point, even if you are joking.

The live scene is, by it's very nature, partisan. Generally, people only go to see what they know. They're not going to invest a whole evening, and (if they're drinking) possibly the next day being hungover, plus all the money and time and energy it takes to go to see something, on the off-chance that it might be good.

Rubbish. Sweepingly generalised rubbish at that.

 

[story]

Rubbish. Sweepingly generalised rubbish at that.

Sweeping genralisiation, yes. But not rubbish.

I would say that most people only pay to go to see what they already know and like.

Generally speaking, people who would pay and arrange to go out to see a band that they don't know, and don't know that they like, are going to be in the minority.

Some of us are fortunate enough to have lives that favour going out to see unknown bands. I'm sure it's not the norm.

 

[girasol]

Mind you the first time I heard Velvet Underground it blew my mind into tiny pieces, that's never happenned with The Libertines. The music just ain't good enough, and 'influential' in this debate should be about the music, IMO.

There's nothing unique, or new about their sound.

If anyone is likely to be influential are bands like Brian Jonestown Massacre... Not The Libertines.

 

[story]

Mind you the first time I heard Velvet Underground it blew my mind into tiny pieces, that's never happenned with The Libertines. The music just ain't good enough, and 'influential' in this debate should be about the music, IMO.

There's nothing unique, or new about their sound.

If anyone is likely to be influential are bands like Brian Jonestown Massacre... Not The Libertines.

Yeah, I'd agree with this.

I thought it was clear that there is no comparison between the VU and the Libs - so obvious I didn't even comment on that point.

And yeah, the OP was about the music, and I don't think the Lib's music is all that.

Okay - bored now. The music is not *that* influential, the band is fairly influential.

That's my point, I made it, cheerio.

 

[Dubversion]

!!Bully!!

 

[story]

!!Bully!!

Post reported

 

[Iam]

Anyway, the Libertines are fucking wank.

I really can't be arsed any further than that.

Believe whatever the fuck you like, see what I care.