A Libertines Poll

[story]

It's a strange one this.... I'd agree that you could live and die a thousand times and never encounter the Libs, and not have missed anything. And yet here we are talking about them. Again. (And you can't say "it's all for Cheesypoof" - she's not made an appearance in this thread, yet.)

In a little corner of my little corner of the world, some things are the way they are because of the Libs. I'm not a great fan - saw them several times both before and after Pete was in the band, saw Babyshambles and Dirty Pretty Things several times. I'm aware of Pete's immense charisma, which even H cannot destroy, apparently, and I think there's a very good and interesting songsmith trapped inside him.

But every time I go to see an unsigned or unheralded band, they are so clearly post-Libs that it's getting boring. (BTW Metro Riots are influenced by the Libs??? I'd argue against that.) Even the support bands are post-Lib, and so are their girlfriends.

If there's a gaggle of teemagers in the street or on the Tube, one of them (usually the Cool one) is wearing a military coat, or a porkpie hat, or one of the chicks is doing a Kate Moss thing with her hair.

Bands started doing guerilla gigs, their fans started acting fucked up, they are all write poetry now, showing out the lyrics written into their phones (I know this cos they want to read them out to me, little fuckers....)

I'm talking about the small bands, the bottom feeders, the ones who will never make it, who have one piece of talent in their ranks who will go on to do something later on. The Libs will have been the first band they fell in love with, the band who saved their life.

I reckon they've been massively influential, in a very limited arena.

ETA I've just had a look at the thread where Cheesypoof says that thing about the Libs being the most ... etc 25 years etc blah.... Well I don't agree with that.

 

[zoooo]

Of course they're not very important.
But they were a great band.

 

[ice-is-forming]

actually cheesy because of your exuberance about this i have just once again attempted to listen to heros and sorry i reckon its awfull

 

[RaverDrew]

It's all a matter of opinion innit

The fact that dub has got himself so wound up as to start this poll just as yet another stick to beat Cheesypoof with (this years hippest sport so it seems) makes me pmsl

He is the self-styled Hitler of music opinion

Cuntbubble

pardon my tourettes

 

[Julie]

I haven't heard them.

So no clue how important, or not, they are

Why am I even posting this?

 

[bmd]

It's all a matter of opinion innit

The fact that dub has got himself so wound up as to start this poll just as yet another stick to beat Cheesypoof with (this years hippest sport so it seems) makes me pmsl

It is truly mystifying to me. Why does someone's passion for a band bring out so much nastiness?

Should we all think the same? Should we all like the same music? Or think that the bands we love are actually quite shit?

And the sycophancy is truly a-fucking-mazing. It's like watching a group of kids all stood behind the bully, darting out to poke the new kid in the eye with a stick in the hope that they're more popular with the bully . It's really quite depressing.And yes Dub I do believe you've gone far too far with this. Bullying. Why can't you just leave her alone?

And it's made me wonder whether I want to be a part of this board and then I thought, don't be daft, just ignore it. But to me that's like ignoring a really shitty situation just because I find it uncomfortable.

So what to do? I don't know, I'm finding it harder to enjoy the place I loved, that much I know. So what? Yeah, so what, it's only me that will lose out.

 

[hammerntongues]

Clearly no BUT I was in a Chelmsford pub last night almost by accident , it was karaoke night , it was full of Pete lookalikes , all wanting to grab the mic and be him for 3 minutes .

 

[gabi]

It is truly mystifying to me. Why does someone's passion for a band bring out so much nastiness?

Should we all think the same? Should we all like the same music? Or think that the bands we love are actually quite shit?

And the sycophancy is truly a-fucking-mazing. It's like watching a group of kids all stood behind the bully, darting out to poke the new kid in the eye with a stick in the hope that they're more popular with the bully . It's really quite depressing.And yes Dub I do believe you've gone far too far with this. Bullying. Why can't you just leave her alone?

And it's made me wonder whether I want to be a part of this board and then I thought, don't be daft, just ignore it. But to me that's like ignoring a really shitty situation just because I find it uncomfortable.

So what to do? I don't know, I'm finding it harder to enjoy the place I loved, that much I know. So what? Yeah, so what, it's only me that will lose out.

Innit.. the sneering coz someone actually has passion for a band/musician is pretty foul... no great fan of the libertines/doherty, but i'd prefer people were really into something rather than just being slightly into lots of different things..

 

[Dubversion]

And yes Dub I do believe you've gone far too far with this. Bullying. Why can't you just leave her alone?

find me a single example of bullying - just one.

 

[Dubversion]

It's all a matter of opinion innit

The fact that dub has got himself so wound up as to start this poll just as yet another stick to beat Cheesypoof with (this years hippest sport so it seems) makes me pmsl

He is the self-styled Hitler of music opinion

Cuntbubble

pardon my tourettes

it was a gag, drew, no more and no less - get over yourself.

 

[girasol]

Hang on a minute, there's no bullying in this thread!

I've been the first person to defend cheesy on previous occasions, but this thread is just a discussion about music.

Cheesy said The Libertines were the most influential band in the last 25 years, Dub (and quite a large proportion of people) disagreed, that's not bullying.

Arguing about music is fun, of course people disagree and have different tastes, that's the whole point.

 

[Dubversion]

it's bollocks, iemanja.

This thread is as much a gag as any other 'thread started in reaction to another' - nobody's been horrible, nobody's picked on anybody.

As with the previous bullshit thread that descended into a row about this, there is no bullying AND i could easily produce a shitload of cheesy quotes where she's giving as good - or worse - than she gets.

pathetic, seriously

 

[Dubversion]

It is truly mystifying to me. Why does someone's passion for a band bring out so much nastiness?

Should we all think the same? Should we all like the same music? Or think that the bands we love are actually quite shit?

And the sycophancy is truly a-fucking-mazing. It's like watching a group of kids all stood behind the bully, darting out to poke the new kid in the eye with a stick in the hope that they're more popular with the bully . It's really quite depressing.And yes Dub I do believe you've gone far too far with this. Bullying. Why can't you just leave her alone?

And it's made me wonder whether I want to be a part of this board and then I thought, don't be daft, just ignore it. But to me that's like ignoring a really shitty situation just because I find it uncomfortable.

So what to do? I don't know, I'm finding it harder to enjoy the place I loved, that much I know. So what? Yeah, so what, it's only me that will lose out.

BMD. Cheesy's name is mentioned - i think - 4 times on this thread so far. not ONCE has there been any abuse, bullying or discussion of her. It's about the Libertines and their influence or otherwise.

So - and this is a shame, because I really rate you as a poster - you're talking out of your arse.

 

[Dubversion]

BMD - i've read your post again and you've REALLY Missed the point, haven't you? i suspect you haven't been around much lately but if you think cheesy gets the piss taken out of her for liking the Libertines - simply that - then you really need to read the threads harder.

 

[bmd]

find me a single example of bullying - just one.

Before we do this let's first define bullying. Here is the first link from 'definition of bullying' on Google.

blustery: noisily domineering; tending to browbeat others
the act of intimidating a weaker person to make them do something.

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

A bully is an individual who tends to torment others, either through verbal harassment or physical assaults, or through more subtle methods of coercion.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying

The repeated intimidation of others by the real or threatened infliction of physical, verbal, written, electronically transmitted, or emotional abuse, or through attacks on the property of another. It may include, but not be limited to actions such as verbal taunts, name-calling and put downs, including ethnically-based or gender-based verbal put downs, and extortion of money or possessions.

www.aaps.k12.mi.us/aaps.forparents/parents.studentrr/definitions

Can we agree on any of those terms?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

7 dumb arses already think they are.

 

[Belushi]

7 dumb arses already think they are.

Thats just the predatory older men trying to get on cheesypoofs good side

 

[Dubversion]

Before we do this let's first define bullying. Here is the first link from 'definition of bullying' on Google.







Can we agree on any of those terms?

they all seem fine. Now go find me some, please

(if you're interested, there's a long and boring thread in the bin where this 'bullying' nonsense with regards to cheesy was pretty much buried, along with lots of comments from people that cheesy has threatened, sent nasty PMs to, etc. You might want to read that before pursuing this further

 

[story]

Dp

 

[story]

Clearly no BUT I was in a Chelmsford pub last night almost by accident , it was karaoke night , it was full of Pete lookalikes , all wanting to grab the mic and be him for 3 minutes .

This post ^^ underlines the point I was making here... That the band have been massively influential, but only in a limited arena.

Those karaoke kids - some of them at least - will go on to pursue some creative life, and one or two of those will do something really interesting, or even important and influential. They will cite Doherty and the Libs as one of their important formative influences.

Many (I guess) of the people on here who have been dismissing the Libs are no longer of an age where such things happen - broadly speaking, our tastes and influences have now been fixed . You can't compare our current grown-up experience of music and music makers with what Ver Kids are currently experiencing. Remember when the grown-ups dismissed the Pistols and Husker Du and whatever as "just noise"? It's the same debate.

 

[Dubversion]

This post underlines the point I was making here... That the band have been massively influential, but only in a limited arena.

Those karaoke kids - some of them at least - will go on to pursue some creative life, and one or two of those will do something really interesting, or even important and influential. They will cite Doherty and the Libs as one of their important formative influences.

Many (I guess) of the people on here who have been dismissing the Libs are no longer of an age where such things happen - broadly speaking, our tastes and influences have now been fixed . You can't compare our current grown-up experience of music and music makers with what Ver Kids are currently experiencing. Remember when the grown-ups dismissed the Pistols and Husker Du and whatever as "just noise"? It's the same debate.

no, i disagree wholeheartedly. My influences are far from fixed and I discover new music all the time. I'm also entirely able to assess something I don't like in a (fairly) objective way - by which I mean i might thing the music sucks but I can see if it represents a shift or a new approach or is a big influence sending shockwaves through a particular scene. I was involved in the industry (including years as a journalist / reviewer) for most of the 90s and have - IMO - a fairly good knack for judging these things. I might not like something, but the 'critic' in me can still try and assess its impact

The issue is that even most people who fit the age group you're suggesting the Libertines matter to, don't seem to rate Doherty or his bands that highly.

 

[hammerntongues]

This post ^^ underlines the point I was making here... That the band have been massively influential, but only in a limited arena.

Those karaoke kids - some of them at least - will go on to pursue some creative life, and one or two of those will do something really interesting, or even important and influential. They will cite Doherty and the Libs as one of their important formative influences.

Many (I guess) of the people on here who have been dismissing the Libs are no longer of an age where such things happen - broadly speaking, our tastes and influences have now been fixed . You can't compare our current grown-up experience of music and music makers with what Ver Kids are currently experiencing. Remember when the grown-ups dismissed the Pistols and Husker Du and whatever as "just noise"? It's the same debate.

to an extent I would agree , certainly the fanbase seems to be late teens / early 20`s ( broad sweep I know ) but I think that the appeal of Doherty is built around his character/appearance / lifestyle and not the music . The same cannot be said about The Pistols to use your suggestion , in my opinion they were distinctly different in sound . It may be my 47 year old ears but do The Libertines sound so different from what has gone before ?

 

[Dubversion]

further to my previous point - if the people doubting the importance of the Libertines are doing so because of some perceived generation gap (for want of a better term) and 'the kids' love them, why do the sales figures not really reflect that? sure, they've done OK but there's some other 'indie' acts in the last few years who've done a helluva lot better.

 

[hammerntongues]

further to my previous point - if the people doubting the importance of the Libertines are doing so because of some perceived generation gap (for want of a better term) and 'the kids' love them, why do the sales figures not really reflect that? sure, they've done OK but there's some other 'indie' acts in the last few years who've done a helluva lot better.

does anyone under the age of 20 buy music any more ?

 

[Pigeon]

It may be my 47 year old ears but do The Libertines sound so different from what has gone before ?

More to the pojnt, I think they're quite self-consciously referential of what went before: bit of Smiths, bit of Clash, bit of Kinks etc etc. If anything, they were a Mojo reader's wet dream.

 

[innit]

I really liked the libertines, they had their moment, saw them live and it was a great experience, but I wouldn't go further than saying they were quite an influential band in the last 5 years.

 

[Dubversion]

does anyone under the age of 20 buy music any more ?

well unless there's a major market among 40 year olds for Girls Aloud, Akon and McFly - yes.

And my point was comparing the Libertines sales against bands of a similar ilk - reduced sales would presumably be in proportion so the point still stands

 

[Dubversion]

I really liked the libertines, they had their moment, saw them live and it was a great experience, but I wouldn't go further than saying they were quite an influential band in the last 5 years.

that's probably not unreasonable.

 

[hammerntongues]

In 5 or 10 years time I just cannot imagine any musicians claiming that they were influenced by The Libertines music , the image possibly yes , every music lover in their late teens has always needed someone or some band to claim as there own , it is our duty as grown-ups to point out that they are shit.

 

[story]

Dub - I too have been in the Biz for most of my life, and I too claim to have have the abilty to listen and observe objectively.

And I agree that we might not feel as if our influences are fixed, but I would argue that our tastes are pretty fixed: we know what we prefer to isten to. I know what my real preferences are - what I listen to for fun and enjoyment, what I gravitate towards.

Like, I'll go to see The Fratellis, and likely I'll "get" it. But I know I'm not going to listen to them myself, for fun and enjoyment. I get Radiohead, but I'm not a fan; I get the Smiths but I'm not a fan; I get Goldfrapp but they leave me cold...

Similarly with the Libs - I get it, but I'm no fan. I'm so struck by the look and sound of young bands, and how clearly post-Libs they are.

Maybe the difference between us is that while I don't listen to recorded music every day, I'm out watching live music as often as I can (several times a week). Maybe our difference of opinion arises from this?

hammerntongues - I'm sure you're right when you say that the style and fashion of Doherty and the Libs has been at least as influential, if not more so, than the music; but this is true of every musical fad, no? And is not the visual stuff a badge to denote tribal affiliation to the music anyway? You can't go around singing the song all day, so you go around wearing the clobber. And yes - you're right - the influence of the Libs cannot be compared to that of the Pistols. But back in the day, there were many more people with punk hair and clothes than there were people who'd actually seen the Pistols, I'd say; especially after 1977 and all that.

innit - yeah, about five years is about right I'd say. But things happen so fast these days - a band could expect a much longer ride a few years ago. They're playing the Academy and back down to the Garage in less than 24 months these days, it seems...