A Left List for the Euro's?

[pingupete]

If the Greens are so keen on Palestine and recognise the work that Galloway and Respect have done on this, they should publically declaring they will not stand against him at the General Election. They should do the same for John McDonnell over his opposition to the Heathrow Airport expansion. There are over 500 other seats in England they can contest - I doubt that they will stand in half, but at the moment have no commitment to standing down in the seats of the two MPs who have done more than any others on issues the Greens claim to strongly back.

I've got some sympathy for this point of view, so forgive me if I do some copy and pasting here:

"If party x are so keen on Palestine (or Kurdish human rights work) and recognise the work that Lambert and the Greens have done on this, they should publically declaring they will not stand against her at the Euro Election. They should do the same for Lambert because of her opposition to the Heathrow Airport expansion. There are other regions in England they can contest - I doubt that they will stand in half, but at the moment have no commitment to standing down in the seats of the two MEPs who have done more than any others on issues that party x claim to strongly back."

There are quite a few of us who think it is completely illogical for us to stand in unwinnable seats and potentially alienate fellow political travellers. I think it would be hugely damaging for us to repeat the cycle that began in 2004/05 with Greens and Respect contesting seats against one another.

If the NW breaks that cycle, I think it would be a really positive step. A Green MEP elected with the backing of socialist votes, finishing just ahead of Nick Griffin and keeping him out of the Euro parliament, would be a significant breakthrough.

 

[pingupete]

So it's more important to get a PEB on television than risk letting the BNP in?

... it's one sense of priorities I suppose....

What's your evidence that a PEB actually influences whether or not people vote Green, as opposed to say local activity in London and the South East?

Again, if it means the difference between keeping Griffin out in the NW or not, then it is crucial. If we lose by 300 votes, people would rightly ask, "why did you sacrifice your PEB?" [Caroline Lucas won her seat by less than 300 votes in 1999]

2007 average vote share for the BNP in the NW local elections was 14.8% and in Yorkshire + Humberside it was 13.6%. The likely threshold for Y+H is going to be 11% in a 6 seat region. The risk of the BNP winning a seat here is much lower. Same goes for the W and E Midlands.

In Halton View in 2008, we timed a leaflet drop to publicise the election broadcast. Our vote leapt, going above 30% for the first time. We finished 130 votes behind Labour and we think it was a key moment in the campaign for us. We'll be trying to do the same in the NW this time.

We shouldn't be knocking lumps out of each other on this. The BNP is the enemy. The fact that they got over 50% in a council byelection last night is stunning and worrying.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I've got some sympathy for this point of view, so forgive me if I do some copy and pasting here:

"If party x are so keen on Palestine (or Kurdish human rights work) and recognise the work that Lambert and the Greens have done on this, they should publically declaring they will not stand against her at the Euro Election. They should do the same for Lambert because of her opposition to the Heathrow Airport expansion. There are other regions in England they can contest - I doubt that they will stand in half, but at the moment have no commitment to standing down in the seats of the two MEPs who have done more than any others on issues that party x claim to strongly back."

There are quite a few of us who think it is completely illogical for us to stand in unwinnable seats and potentially alienate fellow political travellers. I think it would be hugely damaging for us to repeat the cycle that began in 2004/05 with Greens and Respect contesting seats against one another.

If the NW breaks that cycle, I think it would be a really positive step. A Green MEP elected with the backing of socialist votes, finishing just ahead of Nick Griffin and keeping him out of the Euro parliament, would be a significant breakthrough.

What is the planned Green contribution to following this "really positive step" then?

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Again, if it means the difference between keeping Griffin out in the NW or not, then it is crucial. If we lose by 300 votes, people would rightly ask, "why did you sacrifice your PEB?" [Caroline Lucas won her seat by less than 300 votes in 1999]

2007 average vote share for the BNP in the NW local elections was 14.8% and in Yorkshire + Humberside it was 13.6%. The likely threshold for Y+H is going to be 11% in a 6 seat region. The risk of the BNP winning a seat here is much lower. Same goes for the W and E Midlands.

In Halton View in 2008, we timed a leaflet drop to publicise the election broadcast. Our vote leapt, going above 30% for the first time. We finished 130 votes behind Labour and we think it was a key moment in the campaign for us. We'll be trying to do the same in the NW this time.

We shouldn't be knocking lumps out of each other on this. The BNP is the enemy. The fact that they got over 50% in a council byelection last night is stunning and worrying.

The difference between Y&H and NW is the relative performance of the parties. The BNP are already well ahead of the combined Green + Respect vote in 2004 in Y&H, but in the NW they are behind and therefore there is an arguable case that they can be beaten. While the hurdle in Y&H is likely to be higher the BNP start with a bigger base of votes (proportionally) than the NW.

2004 comparative votes

North West votes/%, Yorkshire & Humber votes/%

BNP 134,959 6.40% 126,538 8.0%
Greens 117,393 5.60% 90,337 5.7%
Respect 24,636 1.20% 29,865 1.9%

Combined Green and Respect 142,029 6.8% 120,202 7.6%
BNP majority over combined Green /Respect-7,070 -0.4% 6,336 0.4%

Of course in Y&H there is the additional complication of the Alliance for Green Socialism, and I don't know whether they are standing - I assume they will, at least until such time as the Greens come out saying they will never again prop up the Tory administration in the AGS home city of Leeds.

It's a minor point but the BNP got over 40% last night in winning a council by-election in Kent, not 50%, but it's still depressing.

 

[pingupete]

The arrangement in the NW is clear (speak to KP) and open to evolve, but if our combined support keeps Griffin out, then common sense at the General Election in 2010 would dictate there should be no clash of candidates. I'll be (continuing to) advocate that nationally.

If there is something to show for it, those of us, like Matt S and myself, who have spent a lot of time arguing for greater co-operation will have a much stronger voice in the party.

We've done this locally then regionally - Manchester GP agreed it before it went to the NWGP. Trust takes time to build and is building up. I've got to say that your earlier comments came a bit out of the blue. PM me if you want to continue, as some of this is sensitive (on both sides).

 

[pingupete]

It's a minor point but the BNP got over 40% last night in winning a council by-election in Kent, not 50%, but it's still depressing.

You are correct on this. Agree on the fact it is v depressing.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

...
2007 average vote share for the BNP in the NW local elections was 14.8% and in Yorkshire + Humberside it was 13.6%. The likely threshold for Y+H is going to be 11% in a 6 seat region. The risk of the BNP winning a seat here is much lower. Same goes for the W and E Midlands.

...
We shouldn't be knocking lumps out of each other on this. The BNP is the enemy. The fact that they got over 50% in a council byelection last night is stunning and worrying.

1) The candidacy of the BNP in local elections is not comprehensive and cannot be compared with a full elections due to inconsistencies in the number of seats contested and which one's are up for election. The indication is that in both Y&H and the NW the BNP are likely to do better than in 2004.

2) For that reason and because the threat of the BNP is so great as you say, the Greens should consider standing down in Y&H where even if Respect stood down, as they will, there is little chance of beating the BNP and even less chance of the Greens being in with a snowball's chance in hell of winning a seat themselves. That would be the positive response to Respect offering to stand down in NW to help stop the BNP.

3) tell me where the Greens will be reciprocating on this and I'll take it seriously (one ward in Hackney in 2006 out of 4,000 contested that year is not exactly a serious argument). Saying what you will do in Tower Hamlets and Birmingham would be a start, both areas where Respect is massively ahead of the Greens.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

The arrangement in the NW is clear (speak to KP) and open to evolve, but if our combined support keeps Griffin out, then common sense at the General Election in 2010 would dictate there should be no clash of candidates. I'll be (continuing to) advocate that nationally.

If there is something to show for it, those of us, like Matt S and myself, who have spent a lot of time arguing for greater co-operation will have a much stronger voice in the party.

We've done this locally then regionally - Manchester GP agreed it before it went to the NWGP. Trust takes time to build and is building up. I've got to say that your earlier comments came a bit out of the blue. PM me if you want to continue, as some of this is sensitive (on both sides).

I am aware of the discussions but was not party to them. They seem entirely one sided. I am stating my individual position. I think the situation has changed with the huge mobilisations over Gaza in the North West in the last two months. There is no doubt that a candidate associated with George Galloway would get a massively better vote among large sections of the muslim community in the North West. It is this that is a "bit out of the blue" for you maybe.

I think you need to recognise that dynamic too and reflect it in the pace of what you are trying to do. In particular avoid any triumphalism eg that you have persuaded Respect to stand down in return for very little. (I think the same thing applies on a very local scale to John McDonnell too by the way - the Green Left statement calling for McDonnell to stand as an independent was particularly futile; he is not going to do that, so get used to calling for a vote for him as a Labour candidate - no matter how much we hate his party we still have to support his reelection).

 

[articul8]

There is an argument that by Respect standing, they will increase turnout and thus weaken the overall proportion of the BNP vote.

Assuming Respect wouldn't do well enough to clinch a seat themselves, this would only be true if Respect's campaign increased the profile of the elections to an extent that they reminded more Labour voters to go and vote for a mainstream party (presumably Labour!).

Thresholds are misleading in the context of D'Hondt, because if a 1% increase in turnout was mostly split between smaller parties not in contention for a seat - it wouldn't do anything to raise the hurdle for the BNP to take the last seat. Only if an increased turnout boosts the votes of parties in contention would this be true.

Sorry for to be a trainspotter (although the left in Britain doesn't pay enough attention to these things) - we would be better off with an electoral system that allowed votes to transfer (STV), as people could vote for whoever they like but opt to transfer their preferences against the BNP.

BTW - IF keeping out the BNP is the over-riding priority (and I accept that there are other considerations) it would also make sense for the Greens to stand down their candidates in Yorks/Humber, West Mids, and East Mids.

 

[chilango]

One small point.

What sort of message is a panicked "standing down" to stop the BNP going to send out? Especially about the dynamism of the BNP?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I am aware of the discussions but was not party to them. They seem entirely one sided. I am stating my individual position. I think the situation has changed with the huge mobilisations over Gaza in the North West in the last two months. There is no doubt that a candidate associated with George Galloway would get a massively better vote among large sections of the muslim community in the North West. It is this that is a "bit out of the blue" for you maybe.

I think you need to recognise that dynamic too and reflect it in the pace of what you are trying to do. In particular avoid any triumphalism eg that you have persuaded Respect to stand down in return for very little. (I think the same thing applies on a very local scale to John McDonnell too by the way - the Green Left statement calling for McDonnell to stand as an independent was particularly futile; he is not going to do that, so get used to calling for a vote for him as a Labour candidate - no matter how much we hate his party we still have to support his reelection).

The discussions between Greens and broad left in the NW was not one sided. It was done mainly through Covention of The Left which has strong Green / Green Left input and in point of fact Im pretty certain the "deal" was initiated by the left out of recognition that the Greens have a reasonable hope of keeping the BNP from getting the 8th seat.

The Gaza mobilisations have been very impressive and again are a result of across the board efforts. They speak of a groundswell of activism that can hopefully be utlised beyond the Gaza issue, e.g G20 mobilisation.

 

[Matt S]

I must admit to having a real problem with the idea that keeping the BNP out in the short-term in this election is the only consideration. If smaller, progressive parties stand down for Labour or the Lib Dems in order to keep the fascists out, they might succeed for one election cycle, or two...but every time, they are ceding the ground of 'alternative to the mainstream parties' to the fascists. Surely we have to build a progressive alternative in this country, rather than telling people to vote for Labour - the very party that has *&^%ed things up so badly in the first place?

Just my point of view. I shouldn't intrude too greatly into NW discussions, because both pete and F_G are far more involved on the ground than I am from my Londoncentric viewpoint....but my instinctive reaction to any suggestion of standing down in Y+H or elsewhere for *Labour* is one of enormous distaste and refusal, to be frank.

Matt

P.S. I know I say this a lot, too - but the fact that these kinds of discussions are taking place only three/four months before the elections is bonkers. We will *never* get anywhere if this is the timeframe at which people engage. People should start talking about the arrangements (if there are any) for the next Euro elections immediately after these ones, if they want to get anywhere.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

I must admit to having a real problem with the idea that keeping the BNP out in the short-term in this election is the only consideration. If smaller, progressive parties stand down for Labour or the Lib Dems in order to keep the fascists out, they might succeed for one election cycle, or two...but every time, they are ceding the ground of 'alternative to the mainstream parties' to the fascists. Surely we have to build a progressive alternative in this country, rather than telling people to vote for Labour - the very party that has *&^%ed things up so badly in the first place?

Fair point. There have been "vote anyone but Nazeez" campaigns going on for like ages. THe problem is that there are big risks associated with taking on the established parties and the nanzees at the ballot box - how often to the far left and the far right go head-to-head at the ballot box?

It also requires a lot of effort, hard work and face-to-face work with people in their communities - not in university student unions. But that requires patience, a thick skin and listening.

Much easier to go around having cushy meetings in student unions and taking to the streets every so often shouting loudly before disappearing again.

The way forward to combat the nazees is at a community level. But that requires a huge amount of soul-searching on the far-left and an acknowledgement that actions, activities, publications and communications that it currently has in the 21st century make minimal impact in a 21st century society.

 

[durruti02]

Fair point. There have been "vote anyone but Nazeez" campaigns going on for like ages. THe problem is that there are big risks associated with taking on the established parties and the nanzees at the ballot box - how often to the far left and the far right go head-to-head at the ballot box?

It also requires a lot of effort, hard work and face-to-face work with people in their communities - not in university student unions. But that requires patience, a thick skin and listening.

Much easier to go around having cushy meetings in student unions and taking to the streets every so often shouting loudly before disappearing again.

The way forward to combat the nazees is at a community level. But that requires a huge amount of soul-searching on the far-left and an acknowledgement that actions, activities, publications and communications that it currently has in the 21st century make minimal impact in a 21st century society.

agree with prince and matt

 

[treelover]

This can be seen in the lack of interest in the welfare reforms TUC/PCS lobby at parliament in March, these changes will impact on millions but particicualty in the demographic that is currently voting or considering voting for the BNP. When they kick in, people will be in shock as they are forced to work for dole and harrassed by provate companies at home,, they are not suddenly going to become 'revolutionaries' many will instread turn around looking for someone else to blame.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I don't disagree with Matt on standing down against the BNP. Which is why I'm unhappy that Respect have agreed to do it.

The situation has now changed though. Today's BBC Radio Lancashire main story on the news bulletin this morning began

"George Galloway, the Respect MP, has called for an investigation into the arrests of men from Blackburn and Burnley .... etc".

The fact is that Galloway and Respect now have a significant base of support across the north west and particularly in parts of Lancashire, that potentially could start to unseat Labour councillors. To expect those who have been arrested, who will be coming back from Gaza in March, and those who have been active raising money for Palestine in their localities, to go out and canvass for the Green Party in the next elections takes a political leap that is not there yet. The Green Party have a long way to go before they can get there.

And ironically, being associated with united action with the left and the Palestinian cause may mean that their chances of holding on to wards like Shipley in Bradford and Farnley & Wortley ward in Leeds will be weakened.

I fully accept that Matt and Pete understand that, but a lot of Greens will resist such a move.