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A friend of the family has written a novel

cesare said:
Because you've been fucking stalked and had a whole court case as a result of it, you muppet :D Bloody hell. I can't believe that I'm having to point out the relative merits/demerits of your giving lurkers personal ammunition.

.
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Oh, that. I thought you meant some other bunch of people and couldn't think WTF you were on about. Look. Even when there was a single obsessive nutter literally googling all day long, every single day, trying to find out every piece of info they could on me, for years on end, they never ever found me here.

Which is precisely why I feel safe posting away here. Nobody gives a shit who I am and I am hardly well known or interesting enough for any casual reference to me having to read a bad MS written by someone who knows someone in my extended family to be of interest to the wider world, or indeed any other crap that I post about recipes or boilers or politics or X factor or anything else. I'm not a fucking celebrity, or public figure, it's ridiculous to infer that I am.

There are plenty of people here who know each other in real life, have met other posters at pub meets and parties, doesn't stop them writing heartfelt posts or complaining about their personal lives or families or whatever, or being uncharitable or opinionated - does it? I suppose a disgruntled poster or lurker could bother to track down their housemates or bosses or families or exes and provide them with print outs of what they say when they post on urban, but it is hardly likely, is it?

So cesare, this comes over like passive aggressive concern trolling to me: it comes over like you have some longtime beef of old and are using this as an opportunity to have a go at me for whatevah reason.
 
Badger Kitten said:
Oh, that. I thought you meant some other bunch of people and couldn't think WTF you were on about. Look. Even when there was a single obsessive nutter literally googling all day long, every single day, trying to find out every piece of info they could on me, for years on end, they never ever found me here.

Which is precisely why I feel safe posting away here. Nobody gives a shit who I am and I am hardly well known or interesting enough for any casual reference to me having to read a bad MS written by someone who knows someone in my extended family to be of interest to the wider world, or indeed any other crap that I post about recipes or boilers or politics or X factor or anything else. I'm not a fucking celebrity, or public figure, it's ridiculous to infer that I am.

There are plenty of people here who know each other in real life, have met other posters at pub meets and parties, doesn't stop them writing heartfelt posts or complaining about their personal lives or families or whatever, or being uncharitable or opinionated - does it? I suppose a disgruntled poster or lurker could bother to track down their housemates or bosses or families or exes and provide them with print outs of what they say when they post on urban, but it is hardly likely, is it?

So cesare, this comes over like passive aggressive concern trolling to me: it comes over like you have some longtime beef of old and are using this as an opportunity to have a go at me for whatevah reason.
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But what about the conspiracy theorists that don't post much then pop up when you're posting about 7/7? I'm not talking about Jazz and his ilk, I'm talking about the nutjobs that accost people (including you) occasionally on the boards and in real life. You've posted about it, you complain (rightly) about it. Do you imagine that they don't search your posts?

There's nothing passive aggressive and/or trolling about my criticism. I've been fairly blunt and up front about why I think the method you have chosen for criticising your family friend is ill conceived and might possibly rebound on you as well as him. You clearly don't agree - that's fine.
 
Look, I made a perfectly good joke about JK Rowling and I won't have it lost just because you two want to squabble. So make up and tell me how great I am.
 
I do imagine they don't search my every post, or watch me leave the flat every day, yes. If you are suggesting that there are a bunch of nutters these days who obsessively follow my every move and discuss it, with hostile intentions and would trawl the boards looking for dirt, then I don't think that is true, or why would they have not done so before, to me or other people who say things on urban they don't agree with? Because I am not interesting or important enough. They have learned that it is pointless, and after the stalker incident, that I will go to the police if someone threatens me or my family. I stopped writing, and they stopped harassing me. Life moved on.

I know and more importantly can prove that I can prove that I am not in any way a public figure or generally known or recognised because I have a normal job and meetings out the office, and meet my neighbours and go out socially and have dinner and drinks and visit jobs and nobody knows who I am at all. Which is exactly how I want it.

I also know that there are plenty of people on here who have written books or articles, or been featured in the news or whatever, or been on stage or screen or played in bands or had exhibitions and they don't get insinuations that they should never write anything personal because some bunch of lurkers could get hold of it and do something hostile with it!

I know that many many people here are known to each other in real life, and to ex posters to, and that beef happens and nobody ever suggests that they should watch what they say, or that people are watching them.

I think it is creepy to suggest that I or anyone else should not feel comfortable on here writing stuff. I took it as being quite unnecessarily aggressive and unfair.

People post about embarassing or uncomfortable situations and share their worries and prejudices all the time. I think in this case it was fair to post a para anonymously, when people were asking why it was so bad. I took steps to make sure he couldn't be identified and would never find out, and that is, I think, fair enough.

I've had some good advice, funny advice and interesting responses here about this specific situation. I think that raising my background is irrelevant here, and I should be treated as any other anonymous poster with a concern, which is exactly what I am. Otherwise, it's one rule for everyone else and a different one for anyone whose name might conceivably be known to someone, somewhere, for whatever reason. If people can't grasp why it's important that this board works this way, then I am dismayed.

And I might ask for a new log in if I am going to be treated differently to other people, since that negates the whole point of why I come on here and what I get out of it.

And I'd like to drop this now, please.
 
As a writer myself I don't think it's OK to post somebody else's work on a public website without their permission. Simple as.
 
kabbes said:
That's what I'm talking about, right there.
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TBH, I'm dissappointed at the lack of response to my suggestion of burning the thing in front of him. I think it would:

1. Get the general message of the shitness of the book over.

2. Mean that no-one else would have to lose part of their life reading it

Everyone wins
 
Back to the subject in hand, it is very hard to know what to do when someone you don't know very well asks you for criticism, especially of their creative efforts. People often say they want you to be honest but they don't really, do they? Or do they? I don't know him well enough to know what his reaction will be.

It's much more hard work being honest and giving detailed reasons about why it is not working, and being tactful, than just saying it's great. It takes me hours and hours of worrying about how to say it right and over-thinking what his reaction will be, and it's just grim.:(

This is why I am so fed up about it.

I will no doubt spend several hours writing to him this weekend, in my precious spare time, and feeling resentful that I have to do it.

But anyway, the advice on the thread was great so thanks for that. Again.:)
 
I don't know who you are. :confused:

If you were to give this person three authors to read, with a view to learning how to write well... who would you recommend?
 
Get one of his loved ones to break the news with a card.

valentine_tn.jpg
 
Don't spend hours writing to him. In particular, don't spend hours writing to him and then resent it.

Just send him the bit I quoted up there ^^, possibly edited a bit for clarity and slightly less ranting. It's a neat encapsulation of what is wrong with the proto-novel. It certainly helped me get the idea of what it must be like, so it seems to do the job.
 
I will no doubt spend several hours writing to him this weekend, in my precious spare time, and feeling resentful that I have to do it.
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Spend 5 minutes saying it was shite and have a good weekend.

You're martyring yourself needlessly about this (and I don't mean that in a bad way). This is one of those duties to family you can choose to spend no time on, or loads.

I'd spend as little time as possible if I were you, and have a good weekend and not getting resentful over it.
 
susie12 said:
Fair enough. You see my point though.
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I don't. I'm pretty sure that there is nothing ethically, morally or legally wrong with quoting a single paragraph of an author's work, especially having identified it first as not being your own.
 
urb said:
I don't know who you are. :confused:

If you were to give this person three authors to read, with a view to learning how to write well... who would you recommend?
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For learning about how to write a novel, the How to Write Damn Good Fiction is really clear, well-written, useful and entertaining. For novels - there are loads, and I put some up in the OP, but The World According to Garp, To Kill a Mocking Bird, and David Copperfield would be good for descriptive scene setting, robust characterisation, crackling dialogue and pacey plotting. But should talk to his friends who know him better and get them to recommend books he might like, really.
 
cesare said:
I sense that you don't appreciate my criticism.
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You are talking shite.

If you write 30000+ and hand it over to someone to read then you're putting it on the line in the way that you should do as a writer.

And from that you should expect whatever consequences come your way.

That's really the only danger to writing - that someone will read it and criticise it and if you can't deal with that then you shouldn't really be handing it around calling yourself a budding author in the first place.

When I've handed over stuff to read only a couple of individuals have been direct enough to give me really thought provoking criticism and it's exceptionally valuable stuff.

Even if it is negative and gets you down, in the long term the detailed reasons of why something isn't working is always far more important than why it might possibly work in the future.

Badger Kitten - you have to be honest with him.

LJo said:
Give him a copy of this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/feb/01/how-not-to-write-a-novel-review
Click to expand...

This is also a very funny book and well worth a read.
 
Badger Kitten said:
I do imagine they don't search my every post, or watch me leave the flat every day, yes. If you are suggesting that there are a bunch of nutters these days who obsessively follow my every move and discuss it, with hostile intentions and would trawl the boards looking for dirt, then I don't think that is true, or why would they have not done so before, to me or other people who say things on urban they don't agree with? Because I am not interesting or important enough. They have learned that it is pointless, and after the stalker incident, that I will go to the police if someone threatens me or my family. I stopped writing, and they stopped harassing me. Life moved on.

I know and more importantly can prove that I can prove that I am not in any way a public figure or generally known or recognised because I have a normal job and meetings out the office, and meet my neighbours and go out socially and have dinner and drinks and visit jobs and nobody knows who I am at all. Which is exactly how I want it.

I also know that there are plenty of people on here who have written books or articles, or been featured in the news or whatever, or been on stage or screen or played in bands or had exhibitions and they don't get insinuations that they should never write anything personal because some bunch of lurkers could get hold of it and do something hostile with it!

I know that many many people here are known to each other in real life, and to ex posters to, and that beef happens and nobody ever suggests that they should watch what they say, or that people are watching them.

I think it is creepy to suggest that I or anyone else should not feel comfortable on here writing stuff. I took it as being quite unnecessarily aggressive and unfair.

People post about embarassing or uncomfortable situations and share their worries and prejudices all the time. I think in this case it was fair to post a para anonymously, when people were asking why it was so bad. I took steps to make sure he couldn't be identified and would never find out, and that is, I think, fair enough.

I've had some good advice, funny advice and interesting responses here about this specific situation. I think that raising my background is irrelevant here, and I should be treated as any other anonymous poster with a concern, which is exactly what I am. Otherwise, it's one rule for everyone else and a different one for anyone whose name might conceivably be known to someone, somewhere, for whatever reason. If people can't grasp why it's important that this board works this way, then I am dismayed.

And I might ask for a new log in if I am going to be treated differently to other people, since that negates the whole point of why I come on here and what I get out of it.

And I'd like to drop this now, please.
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You are not an anonymous poster. You have arranged book signings on here. You link to press articles about yourself on here. Many people here watched your Richard and Judy interview. You tell us what you're up to with MPs and pressing for a 7/7 enquiry. I'm not saying that's wrong - just that you are not anonymous and the only person that you're deluding is yourself if you think you are.

So your slating a family friend isn't that anonymous.

Like it or not, you are different from most of the hundreds of people posting/lurking here. And I appreciate that you don't like me pointing that out.

I'm happy to drop it, if you are.
 
Look BK, you're not likely to say anything to him that a publisher won't. In fact by actually giving this effort more attention that it deserves you're giving him more feedback than publshers, who will probably not even bother replying. Or reading it if the first para is anything to go by.
 
Diamond said:
You are talking shite.

If you write 30000+ and hand it over to someone to read then you're putting it on the line in the way that you should do as a writer.

And from that you should expect whatever consequences come you're way.

That's really the only danger to writing - that someone will read it and criticise it and if you can't deal with that then you shouldn't really be handing it around calling yourself a budding author in the first place.

When I've handed over stuff to read only a couple of individuals have been direct enough to give me really thought provoking criticism and it's exceptionally valuable stuff.

Even if it is negative and gets you down, in the long term the detailed reasons of why something isn't working is always far more important than why it might possibly work in the future.

Badger Kitten - you have to be honest with him.



This is also a very funny book and well worth a read.
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I've said that she should come up front and tell him, or not. But not slate him and his work off on a message board when he's a family friend - what's shite about that?
 
kyser_soze said:
Look BK, you're not likely to say anything to him that a publisher won't. In fact by actually giving this effort more attention that it deserves you're giving him more feedback than publshers, who will probably not even bother replying. Or reading it if the first para is anything to go by.
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This.
 
cesare said:
I've said that she should come up front and tell him, or not. But not slate him and his work off on a message board when he's a family friend - what's shite about that?
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If you hand over something you've written to someone else to read then you've relinquished control and should be resigned to what happens. That's my opinion. And that's how I reckon an effective critical relationship should operate - with total freedom on the part of the critic.

But more than that, you do seem to be having a go at BK on the very tenuous basis that this individual might somehow trace his work back to this board through some long distant interviews and articles that BK wrote. It's a really thin pretext.
 
cesare said:
the hundreds of people posting/lurking here.
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Currently nearly 35,000 members on these boards and there are 290 people online right now.

I think 'hundreds' of lurkers is almost certainly much less than the actual figure.
 
'It started badly, tailed off in the middle, and the end was terrible'

Cpt. E. Blackadder commenting on Baldrick's War Poem, 'The German Guns', 1917.
 
Definetly don't give it false praise. Cultivates a hack, does that (yes YOU kevin J Anderson)

Cheerfully rip into it and then end with the disclaimer 'Of course it is just a matter of opinion'
 
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