A friend of the family has written a novel

[Riklet]

Jesus that extract is bad.

You could be really mean and tell him to...errrr go and live in Panama, everyone knows you only get famous after you're dead.

Erhummm. Or... you could pretend you've not read any and say there's some really difficult shit going on in your life at the moment I guess. Bleh they will probably end up crushed eventually, I guess it's just whether you want to do the stamping...

my dad's a published author and I don't really read his stuff. I'm not sure why. I have his first book sitting there, i mean it's fucking weird, i'm positive i'll enjoy it and he's a good writer but i've "just not got 'round to it". Possibly one of the weirdest and shittest things when I think about it...

 

[Badger Kitten]

Someone, somewhere, might be posting similar stuff about what you write.

If you don't like what he writes and feel confident enough to say so openly, just say so, openly.



Well if he's relying on your input and the input of those that you covertly seek opinions from, he's on a fucking hiding to nothing eh.

Just fuck him off if you don't like what he writes.

I can't 'just fuck him off' since he is a friend of the family. *Sigh*
I thought someone would be along to have a bit of a go but it's not about me and what I have ever written, is it?

It's not 'I don't like' it, which is purely subjective, it is that it is by any objective measure, really terrible. There is a difference between writing you do not like and writing which is really bad, where the characters are the laziest of ciphers, the plotting signalled from a mile off then the dramatic points fumbled or dropped, pointless detail added, crucial detail left out, the idea plagiarised, the speech is unrealistic, the description non existent, and every single rule of fiction writing is shredded, apparently because the author is unaware of the existence of such conventions because he has not read a novel since school. that is what is so annoying. Would you write a book on biology if you had never studied an animal and then give it to someone with a degree in biology to read and expect them to take the time to explain it all to you?


The character is referred to as Dom one para, Dominic the next. He'll mention that Dom's bike tyre was flat because the shop didn't have the right tyre in, so Dom bought some oranges instead, and then fail to mention that the person he nearly ran over on the bike was his own mother, then suddenly mention it two pages later as if it HAD been mentioned earlier.

Another character is introduced first as an Guardian Education correspondent then as a political journalist, then the character goes on to make a series of staggeringly ignorant howlers and display zero awareness of current educational issues which is just lazy research on the author's part. And on and on we go.

Why write a modern novel if you can't be arsed to look up the first thing about your characters such as what an Education correspondent actually does? Or listen to how people actually talk, ( like they do on TV) so you can replicate their speech patterns instead of having them all talk like careers advisors in the 1970's?


There are undoubtedly thousands of people who don't like what I write, but a) that's not the point here at all b) the point is if I do try to write ( which I do less and less these days because I haven't time) I try to have some idea about what I am doing because I have bothered to learn about it first, read up on it, researched and checked it - I wouldn't write a book on biology as I know very little other than what I was taught at school - and I'd take advice and do basic research before I wrote, anything unlike this person and c) I have not foisted something appallingly written on a family friend who barely knows me and demanded they read it.

The more I think about it the more I think it is taking the piss; 30,000+ words is a lot to hand to someone and he's not joined a writer's group, or even read a book, or done any research at all, just decided he is a novelist and sat and typed away for weeks on a whim, and is now expecting me to spend ages reading it all and feeding back in detail on the grounds that he is best friends with a member of my family. He doesn't actually know anything about me at all apart from I studied EngLit and theology nearly 20 years ago and then did some more writing a few years ago.

 

[5t3IIa]

Are you mostly pissed off he is being a time thief or the insult to literature? If the former then send it back saying you simply don't have time. If it's the latter then you'll end up wastng time writing something calm and considered to him that will be ignored. That's it under a bright light I think.

 

[Bakunin]

To make it even worse, the premise - working class lad goes to Oxbridge, series of catastrophes befall him, one of which is that he discovers his mum is his gran and his sister is his mum - is based in fact. As a retired teacher, he has appropriated the story of a real ex student, told to him in confidence by the student's mother, and on his website he names the bloody school and then made it into a film which he now wants to make into a novel.. So its not even original, it's plagiarised, and totally unethical. You see what i mean about thick skinned and arrogant.

This is extremely bad form for any writer to approach a project, IMHO, and not terribly good personal conduct either. It's unlikely, having read the extract, that any half-decent publisher or agent would touch it with a bargepole, especially given that it's a totally unethical approach to writing anything, really.

If I were you, I'd want to try and be diplomatic (given that he's a friend of the family) and let him receive rejection after rejection from any publisher or agent he chooses to send it to, while saying that it simply isn't your area of expertise and put it as gently as possible.

I'm presuming that the subject of this rather tawdry literary flight of fancy is unaware of what's being done with his life story?

 

[Limejuice]

I suggest you recommend a reader's report from http://www.writersservices.com/services/s_readersrpt.htm

Just say you're not familiar with what the current appetite in fiction publishing is, but these people are professionals.
It'll cost £100 and will be brutally honest.

If he wants truly balls and all feedback, try the editor's report service.

(PS I have no personal connection with this service)

 

[Badger Kitten]

Thanks very much for all the feedback.

Yes, the person whose story has been unwittingly appropriated (and then had all sorts of nonsense added to it) is unaware that it was made into a short indie film. At least the story has had so much extra unbelievable silliness added to it that it will hardly be recognisable as his apart from the family secret premise. But it still should not be referred to as the origins of the story by the friend of the family, at least not naming the school publicly or saying he knew the person.

I will certainly point him in the direction of the writer's feedback service. I will also say that I am not a novelist, just an EngLit grad who is very busy with a new job and worrying family stuff, so think he would be better reading a book on how to write novels and doing the exercises, joining a local or online writing group and reading lots of good novels as a writer and making notes as he reads, and allowing at least a year for this project. Also that things that work as films often do not work as books ( I can't think of a good book written after a film rehashing the story). I will say that it would take time I simply don't have to go through the issues of why it's not working in detail, so his best bet is to read the excellent 'How to Write Damn Good Fiction' and any other books that catch his eye on creative writing.

I think that will cover it and any further approaches I will just say no to, as I really don't have time for this stuff. I don't have time to read books that I have bought/borrowed and want to read, let alone this.

Thank you for letting me let off steam, it has been keeping me up at night.

 

[The Octagon]

Tell him it's the funniest thing you've ever written and you couldn't stop laughing.

Be really enthusiastic.

He'll probably be too embarassed to point out it's meant to be serious and you're off the hook.

 

[Louloubelle]

"dear xxxx

Thanks for sending me your manuscript.

I do not think that I am the right person to advise you re this for a number of reasons, including but not limited to;

• I do not have time to give it the considered response that it deserves;
• I do not consider myself sufficiently authoritative regarding this genre of fiction to do the job well
• From a brief perusal of the synopsis it seems that the life story of the central character is bears close relation to the life of one of my closest friends and thus pushes many buttons for me that I would rather were not pushed.

I'm sorry to disappoint you but as you have obviously put a lot of time and work into this I would rather that you gave the task to someone with the time, skills and subjectivity to read and assess it properly.

I did ask around for you and was recommended this consultancy by a few people, you have to pay a fee but you will get a professional assessment by a suitably skilled professional and, should your manuscript be considered suitable for publication they will also help you to find an agent

http://www.literaryconsultancy.co.uk/

I hope this is helpful

xxxxx

 

[stupid dogbot]

"Sorry, haven't had time to read it yet".

 

[Obnoxiousness]

Save the bugger typing another 30,000 words for nothing.

 

[gsv]

The trouble is, he is elderly, immensely thick skinned

Good. Tell him it's shit. Tell him all the ways it's shit, in detail, with reference to things that aren't shit. He'll be disappointed to say the least, but he'll also be grateful for bullshit-free feedback.

He's a film-maker? Invite him to think of some of the shit product by non-film-makers he's been forced to endure.

Then thank him for thinking of you, and tell him you're getting too old for this shit.

GS(v)

 

[Idris2002]

To make it even worse, the premise - working class lad goes to Oxbridge, series of catastrophes befall him, one of which is that he discovers his mum is his gran and his sister is his mum - is based in fact. As a retired teacher, he has appropriated the story of a real ex student, told to him in confidence by the student's mother, and on his website he names the bloody school and then made it into a film which he now wants to make into a novel.. So its not even original, it's plagiarised, and totally unethical. You see what i mean about thick skinned and arrogant.

You're going to have to bite the bullet and tell him your honest opinion.

And accept the decades long family rift.

 

[cesare]

I can't 'just fuck him off' since he is a friend of the family. *Sigh*
I thought someone would be along to have a bit of a go but it's not about me and what I have ever written, is it?

It's not 'I don't like' it, which is purely subjective, it is that it is by any objective measure, really terrible. There is a difference between writing you do not like and writing which is really bad, where the characters are the laziest of ciphers, the plotting signalled from a mile off then the dramatic points fumbled or dropped, pointless detail added, crucial detail left out, the idea plagiarised, the speech is unrealistic, the description non existent, and every single rule of fiction writing is shredded, apparently because the author is unaware of the existence of such conventions because he has not read a novel since school. that is what is so annoying. Would you write a book on biology if you had never studied an animal and then give it to someone with a degree in biology to read and expect them to take the time to explain it all to you?


The character is referred to as Dom one para, Dominic the next. He'll mention that Dom's bike tyre was flat because the shop didn't have the right tyre in, so Dom bought some oranges instead, and then fail to mention that the person he nearly ran over on the bike was his own mother, then suddenly mention it two pages later as if it HAD been mentioned earlier.

Another character is introduced first as an Guardian Education correspondent then as a political journalist, then the character goes on to make a series of staggeringly ignorant howlers and display zero awareness of current educational issues which is just lazy research on the author's part. And on and on we go.

Why write a modern novel if you can't be arsed to look up the first thing about your characters such as what an Education correspondent actually does? Or listen to how people actually talk, ( like they do on TV) so you can replicate their speech patterns instead of having them all talk like careers advisors in the 1970's?


There are undoubtedly thousands of people who don't like what I write, but a) that's not the point here at all b) the point is if I do try to write ( which I do less and less these days because I haven't time) I try to have some idea about what I am doing because I have bothered to learn about it first, read up on it, researched and checked it - I wouldn't write a book on biology as I know very little other than what I was taught at school - and I'd take advice and do basic research before I wrote, anything unlike this person and c) I have not foisted something appallingly written on a family friend who barely knows me and demanded they read it.

The more I think about it the more I think it is taking the piss; 30,000+ words is a lot to hand to someone and he's not joined a writer's group, or even read a book, or done any research at all, just decided he is a novelist and sat and typed away for weeks on a whim, and is now expecting me to spend ages reading it all and feeding back in detail on the grounds that he is best friends with a member of my family. He doesn't actually know anything about me at all apart from I studied EngLit and theology nearly 20 years ago and then did some more writing a few years ago.

Yes, I was having a go. I accept that I could (maybe should) have put what I said more tactfully - and also that I need to explain my post further.

Of all the people on this site, with the possible exception of editor, you are the best known. You've appeared on national TV. You've written your own book. You are a real person and are known to people. You are not anonymous.

So when you write so scathingly about the literary efforts of a friend of your family ... describing him, providing information about him (e.g. the film, his age, and your perception of his personality), typing out an extract of what he sent you to review ... it's not anonymous. You know fine well that there are people out there that seize on what you write/post and use it for their own ends.

If you had said what you thought about him and your initial reading of the first few lines of his 30,000 words to him personally and were subsequently and retrospectively having a dark tea-time of the soul, that would be entirely different. But that's not the case.

You're a public figure and you've torn apart the efforts of a family friend under a very very thin veneer of internet anonymity, because you feel inconvenienced. When I made the parallel with your own writing, it wasn't a point about you and your own writing. The point was about critical review and how that's carried out.

How would you have felt if the positions were reversed? If he was well known and you weren't. If you had approached him with your book on the basis of trust as a family friend. If he then had been so scathing about your efforts and your personality in a medium where he was well known.

You're not stupid and you're not naive. You've slated a family friend here and that may or may not rebound on you. But in any event, just treat him and his literary aspirations in a way that you would want to be treated.

 

[fogbat]

"Accidentally" burn the manuscript.

When he sends you another copy, that one should "accidentally" end up on fire, too.

Repeat until he picks up on the hint.

 

[Stoat Boy]

At least he has written it.

I dont mean to sound harsh but how many threads do we get on here about people wanting to be writers but not seeming to grasp the fact that it involves the act of just sitting down and putting words on paper or a screen ?

His 30,000 words of dross represent far more chance of getting published than any amount of hours spent in coffee shops or where ever making notes and/or discussing the next classic you are going to write.

I think you should tell him well done for putting in the effort and offer some constructive criticism. As to books well I think that the best one I have read has been Stephen Kings 'On writing'.

 

[Obnoxiousness]

This is the great fear of writing... and why many would-be writers don't get past 5000 words. The fear of it being crap.

If writing is really an art, then why can't people produce a pile of bricks instead of a portrait in oils?

 

[Epico]

Good post Cesare, I agree.

 

[Dirty Martini]

Yes, I was having a go. I accept that I could (maybe should) have put what I said more tactfully - and also that I need to explain my post further.

Of all the people on this site, with the possible exception of editor, you are the best known. You've appeared on national TV. You've written your own book. You are a real person and are known to people. You are not anonymous.

So when you write so scathingly about the literary efforts of a friend of your family ... describing him, providing information about him (e.g. the film, his age, and your perception of his personality), typing out an extract of what he sent you to review ... it's not anonymous. You know fine well that there are people out there that seize on what you write/post and use it for their own ends.

If you had said what you thought about him and your initial reading of the first few lines of his 30,000 words to him personally and were subsequently and retrospectively having a dark tea-time of the soul, that would be entirely different. But that's not the case.

You're a public figure and you've torn apart the efforts of a family friend under a very very thin veneer of internet anonymity, because you feel inconvenienced. When I made the parallel with your own writing, it wasn't a point about you and your own writing. The point was about critical review and how that's carried out.

How would you have felt if the positions were reversed? If he was well known and you weren't. If you had approached him with your book on the basis of trust as a family friend. If he then had been so scathing about your efforts and your personality in a medium where he was well known.

You're not stupid and you're not naive. You've slated a family friend here and that may or may not rebound on you. But in any event, just treat him and his literary aspirations in a way that you would want to be treated.

I agree with this post.

Not everything has to go up on these boards and I think the point-and-laugh (or point-and-be-incredulous) quoting of the first paragraph is out of order. He's a family friend, regardless of whether you think he's pompous and thick-skinned and whatnot. He's given you something private to him to take a look at, because he feels he can rely on your 'professional' opinion, and would presumably be mortified if you felt it worth sharing to a load of strangers on the internet just to get it off your chest -- again, regardless of whether you like him or not.

He has put you in a difficult position, but one that can be solved by being brutally honest or by lying. Personally, I'm shit at pissing on people's dreams of literary stardom, so I'd probably mutter something about it being ok but not my thing, and pointing out the dodgy circumstances in which the novel has come about. In a jocular and self-effacing manner of course

 

[Badger Kitten]

Yes, I was having a go. I accept that I could (maybe should) have put what I said more tactfully - and also that I need to explain my post further.

Of all the people on this site, with the possible exception of editor, you are the best known. You've appeared on national TV. You've written your own book. You are a real person and are known to people. You are not anonymous.

So when you write so scathingly about the literary efforts of a friend of your family ... describing him, providing information about him (e.g. the film, his age, and your perception of his personality), typing out an extract of what he sent you to review ... it's not anonymous. You know fine well that there are people out there that seize on what you write/post and use it for their own ends.

If you had said what you thought about him and your initial reading of the first few lines of his 30,000 words to him personally and were subsequently and retrospectively having a dark tea-time of the soul, that would be entirely different. But that's not the case.

You're a public figure and you've torn apart the efforts of a family friend under a very very thin veneer of internet anonymity, because you feel inconvenienced. When I made the parallel with your own writing, it wasn't a point about you and your own writing. The point was about critical review and how that's carried out.

How would you have felt if the positions were reversed? If he was well known and you weren't. If you had approached him with your book on the basis of trust as a family friend. If he then had been so scathing about your efforts and your personality in a medium where he was well known.

You're not stupid and you're not naive. You've slated a family friend here and that may or may not rebound on you. But in any event, just treat him and his literary aspirations in a way that you would want to be treated.

You know what? You are being well out of order.
Completely fucking out of order here.
I am not a fucking 'public figure', I am not 'well known', I have made huge efforts to drop off the radar. I don't write anymore, I don't blog, I changed my name, I changed everything I could to get away from it all. I am writing anonymously here as I always have done, on a site where you have to register to read it, I have not mentioned the name of the man, nobody knows who my family are, none of my family reads this site, none of you here have met them or know my family, nobody gives a shit about what I used to do when I was off work and I specifically want it that way. I write here because I want to, I feel safe and happy here, just like everyo0ne else - or I did - and now you are telling me that everything I write is of interest and noted down - because I wrote a book, once, which sold a few thousand copies, and did some campaigning, for nothing, for some people, and did some writing because I was asked to, and took time out from my career, because I was fucked up by what had been going on?

Fuck's sake. I am totally and utterly fucking sick of being judged like this.
I have made damn sure that nobody will know who he is. My family have dozens and dozens of friends, hundreds. I have not even said which member of the family he is friends with, ffs.

People on here write about their personal issues with their partners and parents and friends and colleagues and acquaintances all the time, and don't get called out like this.


I know he will never read what I have written, which was exactly why I wrote it here, I didn't even mention my own background - why should I? This man has not read my book, he's asking because I did English and Theology at Uni - and I don't see why I can't be treated like anyone else here.

So presumably a name change is in order, because I thought I was safe here, and if I am going to get this crap every time I post about a personal issue or family problem, then clearly I can't post here any more because I can't be treated like anyone else on these boards.

Jesus. Why can't you get past this?

 

[cesare]

You know what? You are being well out of order.
Completely fucking out of order here.
I am not a fucking 'public figure', I am not 'well known', I have made huge efforts to drop off the radar. I don't write anymore, I don't blog, I changed my name, I changed everything I could to get away from it all. I am writing anonymously here as I always have done, on a site where you have to register to read it, I have not mentioned the name of the man, nobody knows who my family are, none of my family reads this site, none of you here have met them or know my family, nobody gives a shit about what I used to do when I was off work and I specifically want it that way. I write here because I want to, I feel safe and happy here, just like everyo0ne else - or I did - and now you are telling me that everything I write is of interest and noted down - because I wrote a book, once, which sold a few thousand copies, and did some campaigning, for nothing, for some people, and did some writing because I was asked to, and took time out from my career, because I was fucked up by what had been going on?

Fuck's sake. I am totally and utterly fucking sick of being judged like this.
I have made damn sure that nobody will know who he is. My family have dozens and dozens of friends, hundreds. I have not even said which member of the family he is friends with, ffs.

People on here write about their personal issues with their partners and parents and friends and colleagues and acquaintances all the time, and don't get called out like this.


I know he will never read what I have written, which was exactly why I wrote it here, I didn't even mention my own background - why should I? This man has not read my book, he's asking because I did English and Theology at Uni - and I don't see why I can't be treated like anyone else here.

So presumably a name change is in order, because I thought I was safe here, and if I am going to get this crap every time I post about a personal issue or family problem, then clearly I can't post here any more because I can't be treated like anyone else on these boards.

Jesus. Why can't you get past this?

I sense that you don't appreciate my criticism.

 

[innit]

I can see why cesare's post upset you but she does have a point that a lot of us know who you are, including a lot of people who read the boards without posting, in total anonymity, quite possibly including people you know OR people who know your family friend.

Yes you are right that lots of posters blur the lines of anonymity by posting photos, intimate details of relationships, I don't always think that's OK either where there is enough info given to identify others involved.

 

[LJo]

Give him a copy of this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/feb/01/how-not-to-write-a-novel-review

 

[Badger Kitten]

I sense that you've been dying to 'have a go' for ages, with all the ''You know fine well that there are people out there that seize on what you write/post and use it for their own ends'' stuff, which is complete news to me, I must say, and sounds like an attempt to be vaguely threatening and intimidating.

Do you really think I would have posted this if I hadn't been completely sure that nobody remotely connected to my family, lurking or otherwise, would read this? I know damn well that there is no way in hell it will get back - even if someone is malicious enough to print it out, try and google my family and post it to them. Because it's not even a member of my immediate family's friend , and we have a large and diverse family - and therefore any attempt to work it out will draw a complete blank. I am not completely stupid. And I felt safe here, knowing that. I've always used this place as somewhere to feel safe and get trusted advice. And now hearing all this judging pursed lipped sanctimonious crap, I feel sick at what I've shared and said, in confidence, where I thought I was safe and just one of the crowd.

Sick and shaky and sad. Fucking hell, well now I know.

 

[cesare]

I sense that you've been dying to 'have a go' for ages, with all the ''You know fine well that there are people out there that seize on what you write/post and use it for their own ends'' stuff, which is complete news to me, I must say, and sounds like an attempt to be vaguely threatening and intimidating.

Do you really think I would have posted this if I hadn't been completely sure that nobody remotely connected to my family, lurking or otherwise, would read this? I know damn well that there is no way in hell it will get back - even if someone is malicious enough to print it out, try and google my family and post it to them. Because it's not even a member of my immediate family's friend , and we have a large and diverse family - and therefore any attempt to work it out will draw a complete blank. I am not completely stupid. And I felt safe here, knowing that. I've always used this place as somewhere to feel safe and get trusted advice. And now hearing all this judging pursed lipped sanctimonious crap, I feel sick at what I've shared and said, in confidence, where I thought I was safe and just one of the crowd.

Sick and shaky and sad. Fucking hell, well now I know.

I've criticised you for posting about a family friend, and details about your family's friend.

I didn't criticise you when you posted about your brother's illness (for example). Can't you see the difference?

Fucking get a grip.

 

[Badger Kitten]

You know fine well that there are people out there that seize on what you write/post and use it for their own ends'

What's that supposed to mean, then?
''Oh cesare, you must be aware that there are people reading what you write and using it for their own ends. And they all know exactly who you are.''



How do you think you'd react to that then?

Fucking don't tell me to get a grip.

 

[kabbes]

It's awful. Really, really bad. Vogon poetry bad.

...

There's no characterisation bar the laziest of cliches. It's all 'telling', not 'showing'. The author's voice, intrudes, pompously, and irritatingly throughout. The plot - council boy goes to Oxford - is completely unrealistic and sub-Shirley Valentine. It's complete crap. It's a parade of authorial prejudices and pontifications linked together by lazy cliche and leaden prose.

Sounds like a best-seller, to me. Tell him to get in touch with JK Rowling's agent and take it from there.

 

[kabbes]

Alternatively, just tell him this, which seems like entirely reasonable and thought-out criticism to me. You don't even have to rewrite it:

It's not 'I don't like' it, which is purely subjective, it is that it is by any objective measure, really terrible. There is a difference between writing you do not like and writing which is really bad, where the characters are the laziest of ciphers, the plotting signalled from a mile off then the dramatic points fumbled or dropped, pointless detail added, crucial detail left out, the idea plagiarised, the speech is unrealistic, the description non existent, and every single rule of fiction writing is shredded, apparently because the author is unaware of the existence of such conventions because he has not read a novel since school. that is what is so annoying. Would you write a book on biology if you had never studied an animal and then give it to someone with a degree in biology to read and expect them to take the time to explain it all to you?


The character is referred to as Dom one para, Dominic the next. He'll mention that Dom's bike tyre was flat because the shop didn't have the right tyre in, so Dom bought some oranges instead, and then fail to mention that the person he nearly ran over on the bike was his own mother, then suddenly mention it two pages later as if it HAD been mentioned earlier.

Another character is introduced first as an Guardian Education correspondent then as a political journalist, then the character goes on to make a series of staggeringly ignorant howlers and display zero awareness of current educational issues which is just lazy research on the author's part. And on and on we go.

 

[kyser_soze]

"Accidentally" burn the manuscript.

When he sends you another copy, that one should "accidentally" end up on fire, too.

Repeat until he picks up on the hint.

This, but burn it in front of him, not accidentally.

 

[cesare]

You know fine well that there are people out there that seize on what you write/post and use it for their own ends'

What's that supposed to mean, then?
''Oh cesare, you must be aware that there are people reading what you write and using it for their own ends. And they all know exactly who you are.''



How do you think you'd react to that then?

Fucking don't tell me to get a grip.

Because you've been fucking stalked and had a whole court case as a result of it, you muppet Bloody hell. I can't believe that I'm having to point out the relative merits/demerits of your giving lurkers personal ammunition.

You're in the public eye and have experienced the positives and negatives of that.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Give him a copy of this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/feb/01/how-not-to-write-a-novel-review

That looks brilliant, I want that for Christmas