'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'

[rocketman]

Awful stories. Awful. I see no point trying to make a point, when these tales speak for themselves of the brutality of an unjust and illegal invasion.

There is one point to ponder: In a few years time, the US will be home to literally thousands of de-sensitised former soldiers with little respect for themselves of for human life.

The US will fail to support them, and it will be just like the Vietnam vets all over again, with all the problems that entailed.

I'm no fan of capital punishment, but I'd make an exception here. I'd like to see Bush, Blair, Cheney and all involved in promoting and taking the decision to launch this unjust war hung by their necks from a lamp post in Baghdad.

They have unleashed a level of suffering and violence that will infect the future of this millenium. Their racism and anti-muslim dogma will do nothing to make the world a peaceful place, it will just become a thousand years of stored resentment.

As such, perhaps the protagonists of this war should also be flogged and quartered.

 

[Aldebaran]

What and Germany/Japan didn't do this in WWII? British imperialism/colonialism didn't do this?

The thread is about the behaviour of US soldiers in Iraq. Today. While we write this.
And in fact: the thread isn't a comparitive study about various forms and implications of former and present imperialism either.

salaam.

 

[Crispy]

The thread is about the behaviour of US soldiers in Iraq. Today. While we write this.
And in fact: the thread isn't a comparitive study about various forms and implications of former and present imperialism either.

salaam.

You turned it into one when you made comments about the 'unique' nature of the american occupation.

for what it's worth, I think the facotrs you list play a small part - your average middle american has a rather distorted view of the world and america's place in it. No doubt the culture shock is greater for those soldiers than those with a better 'education' - but in the end war is hell for all concerned, and when bullets are flying and your buddies are dying, we're all the same.

 

[Aldebaran]

Madness. Tens of millions of people in the US are denied a full education due to their economic circumstances 0for many of them the only way to be able to get tio colleg or uni is do a few tours in the army. Hence those from deprived backgrounds are over-represneted in the army, and massively so amongst those who end up in dangererous situations that allow the attitidues demonstrated in the OP to develop.

And that is the responsiblity of those at the receiving end, somehow?

It's utterly counter-productive to say that becasue the US is the richest country in the world that everyone in the US is rich.

Correction: It is utterly realistic to declare that if a nation has the arrogance to profile itself the way the US does, it needs to deliver that self-imposed standard at every level of its society. It is not my problem the USA constantly over-estimates itself while stubbornly acting as if it doesn't, is it?

Moral simplicity at its worst that denies the reality that stares anyone who takes the time to take a critical look at US army recruitment in terms of class and geography. The working class of one country paid to kill the working class of another.

Not my problem either. As I said, I am convinced it is a wanted situation. Would they educate their masses properly they would not find volunteers to serve as the ideal narrow minded brainswashed cannon fodder for their Imperialst Wars of Greed.

salaam.

 

[butchersapron]

And that is the responsiblity of those at the receiving end, somehow?

Correction: It is utterly realistic to declare that if a nation has the arrogance to profile itself the way the US does, it needs to deliver that self-imposed standard at every level of its society. It is not my problem the USA constantly over-estimates itself while stubbornly acting as if it doesn't, is it?

Not my problem either. As I said, I am convinced it is a wanted situation. Would they educate their masses properly they would not find volunteers to serve as the ideal narrow minded brainswashed cannon fodder for their Imperialst Wars of Greed.

salaam.

Who on earth it's said that it's the fault of those at the recieving end (that postion could easily be read into the logic of your post when it's turned around and soldiers are getting killed though). A search for a reasonable explantion of how something has developed and why is not a demand that the end result of that development be supported.

No, it's a demand/expectation that has no chnace of being met right now, so arguing as if it has been is pointless. It's just a way to hide the internal class reality of the US and the US military in favour of moral simplicity under ideal conditions. Those conditions do not exist, don't treat people as if they do.

 

[rocketman]

Is there a discussion on free will imminent? The idea that every person on this planet can make a choice between peace or war?

 

[Aldebaran]

You turned it into one when you made comments about the 'unique' nature of the american occupation.

No. I said it is unique to US soldiers to think like US soldiers do.

for what it's worth, I think the facotrs you list play a small part

No, they play a very significant part. Ask your average Britsh military what they think about it. Ask the average Iraqi to compare between British and US troops behaviours and attitudes.

- your average middle american has a rather distorted view of the world and america's place in it.

The average US'er has such distorded views. It has less to do with their class then it has to do with the way they are brainwashed about this since birth.

No doubt the culture shock is greater for those soldiers than those with a better 'education'

No, it is not. From top to bottom they had and have no lcue about the culture they were invading and distorting.
No clue at all and they still have no clue.

- but in the end war is hell for all concerned, and when bullets are flying and your buddies are dying, we're all the same.

I very much doubt that. Humans are possibly the same in their fundamental fear and anxiety, not in their personal reactions to it.

salaam.

 

[Das Uberdog]

No. I said it is unique to US soldiers to think like US soldiers do.

You then also described to us what this pattern of thinking was - to be honest - based upon unwarranted cultural prejudices.

 

[Aldebaran]

You then also described to us what this pattern of thinking was - to be honest - based upon unwarranted cultural prejudices.

Whihc is as good as claiming that I have no clue what I talk about.
You cant know me hence you don't need to believe me, but I have a functioning brain. From which follows that if I have no clue I prefer to keep silent.

salaam.

 

[cockneyrebel]

You mean all those arm chair warriors in the US who are even too lazy to come out of their homes to vote the mass murderer out of office.

I don't talk about "equally bad examples" elswhere. I talk about a typical US brand of arrogance.

An arrogance which is the hall mark of all imperialist/colonialist butchers throughout history.

But there are many passionate anti-war activists in the US and indeed thing such as the International Solidarity Movement in Palestine had many people from the US involved.

Whihc "bait" are you talking about? This ciminal invasion/occupation of the sovereing nation Iraq is sold on a worldwide scale as the US (and by xtenstion the West's) "War on Terror" and "defence of "our" way of life"
(by which I always ask myself why on earth they are so utterly convinced "their" way is better than "ours")

The bait that turns this into a religious/ethnic/cultural conflict and one for "democracy" rather than what it is really about, imperialism. And imperialism is an international reflection of class struggle i.e. the rich oppressing the working class. Do you really think this war will benefit the poor working class in the US?

The thread is about the behaviour of US soldiers in Iraq. Today. While we write this.
And in fact: the thread isn't a comparitive study about various forms and implications of former and present imperialism either.

You said it was unique, not me. You seem to accept that the butchery handed out by the US isn't unique now, fair enough.

No. I said it is unique to US soldiers to think like US soldiers do.

What so German and Japanese soldiers didn't buy into the whole racial/cultural superiority thing, maybe even more so?

 

[butchersapron]

Is this a different Aldebaran than the one who normally posts here?

 

[Aldebaran]

Is this a different Aldebaran than the one who normally posts here?

?

I don't think I have multiple personality disorder, but one can never be sure

salaam.

 

[treelover]

Awful stories, I must say in the case of US soldiers, their brutal approach to civilians and indeed their cavalier attitude to their incredibly powerful weaponry, the role of violent films and especially repetetive and sensational video games, must have some bearing, a point Grossman makes.

Yep. There's that famous statistic from WW2 isn;t there? Something like only 20% of soldiers ever fired their weapon at the enemy.
Reply With Quote

 

[Aldebaran]

The bait that turns this into a religious/ethnic/cultural conflict and one for "democracy" rather than what it is really about, imperialism. And imperialism is an international reflection of class struggle i.e. the rich oppressing the working class. Do you really think this war will benefit the poor working class in the US?

I think you misunderstood the aim for which I made that reference (and the intention of my posts in general too).
The “War on Terror” slogan is invented to blindfold the US (and by extension Western/Allied) masses for the real purpose of this aggression. Which is what I said. Which is why I question why you act as if I don’t.
By the way: If it doesn’t benefit US consumers ultimately, how can it benefit Corporate USA? They don’t live by Export-Only.

In addition: I wasn’t talking about the actual butchery but about the mindset and culture inciting its specific expression in the form of the actions and reasoning of US soldiers in Iraq.

salaam.

 

[treelover]

btw, torres, is there any oral accounts of a reluctance to fire at the enemy in Grossmans book, on amazon, his stats, methodology, etc, come under criticism, eg, firing blindly in panic, not actually wilfully missing....

 

[cockneyrebel]

In addition: I wasn’t talking about the actual butchery but about the mindset and culture inciting its specific expression in the form of the actions and reasoning of US soldiers in Iraq.

But there is nothing unique really. Just look at the the mindset of soliders serving for nazi Germany, imperialist Japan, British colonialism etc it's all pretty much the same.

By the way: If it doesn’t benefit US consumers ultimately, how can it benefit Corporate USA? They don’t live by Export-Only.

At most it could benefit the labour aristocricy through a round about way, but in the days of neo-liberalism even that seems doubtful. The people it will benefit is the rich. Do you really think that things will improve in the ghettos or the poor american south?

Awful stories, I must say in the case of US soldiers, their brutal approach to civilians and indeed their cavalier attitude to their incredibly powerful weaponry, the role of violent films and especially repetetive and sensational video games, must have some bearing, a point Grossman makes.

Didn't need video games for this lot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen

 

[treelover]

from amazon review of Grossmans book, i wonder if they were all 'terrorists' sounds like 'every gook was a viet cong', etc.

14 of 17 people found the following review helpful:
Excellent, MUST READ book, September 7, 2005
By Nicholas R. White (Ventura, Ca USA) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
Out of all the training manuals and books that we have to read as Marines, this book has more facts and "what to expect" in a combat environment than any of them I have read. Just this past Feb/March, I returned home from Fallujah, Iraq where I was with RCT-1. We killed 2500 terrorists and lost 115 Marines in the 7 months I was there. Knowing everything I learned from that experience, I could not give even half the information he has provided in this book. I have read all of Mr. Grossman's book and watched all of his tapes, I CANNOT say enough great things about them. They are packed with information and knowledge that ALL law enforcement, military, security personnel, and parents should read!!! Great Book!!!!!

 

[butchersapron]

btw, torres, is there any oral accounts of a reluctance to fire at the enemy in Grossmans book, on amazon, his stats, methodology, etc, come under criticism, eg, firing blindly in panic, not actually wilfully missing....

There is TL yes - IIRC he used pretty much every sort of data he could get his hands on. There are academic reviews on-line i've read that seem to support his argument ( there are probably ones that don't though tbf).

 

[Aldebaran]

But there is nothing unique really. Just look at the the mindset of soliders serving for nazi Germany, imperialist Japan, British colonialism etc it's all pretty much the same.

I said it is unique in context of Iraq, today, and in context of worldview, today. (If I want to place it in context of human history I need to write a study on the subject.)

At most it could benefit the labour aristocricy through a round about way, but in the days of neo-liberalism even that seems doubtful. The people it will benefit is the rich. Do you really think that things will improve in the ghettos or the poor american south?

The most pressing incentive is fear to loose the dominant position. To maintain at the very least the current status quo must - inevitably - be part of the reasoning behind it. The basic of all Capitalist economics is that everyone is a consumer, even if they live from benefits.
That is why "they hate us for our freedom" and "They want to destroyu our way of life" are such useful indoctrinating slogans too. It appeals directly to the heart of consumerism ideology.

salaam.

 

[cockneyrebel]

I said it is unique in context of Iraq, today, and in context of worldview, today. (If I want to place it in context of human history I need to write a study on the subject.)

Even in the here and now there are various brutal conflicts going on that involved just as much violence as Iraq. In the Congo for example.

But anyway I don't really understand your point to be honest.

The most pressing incentive is fear to loose the dominant position. To maintain at the very least the current status quo must - inevitably - be part of the reasoning behind it. The basic of all Capitalist economics is that everyone is a consumer, even if they live from benefits.

The status quo of the ghettos and poor american south where people have infant mortality rates similar to Africa and fuck all health care etc Do you really think the war will benefit that layer of society?

That is why "they hate us for our freedom" and "They want to destroyu our way of life" are such useful indoctrinating slogans too. It appeals directly to the heart of consumerism ideology.

It may work as propaganda but it certainly won't benefit working class people in reality. You seem to almost write off the whole american working class.

You might wanna look at stuff like this:

http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=1395

 

[bluestreak]

that's pretty grim reading innit

 

[Aldebaran]

But anyway I don't really understand your point to be honest.

Read my first post in htis thread.

The status quo of the ghettos and poor american south where people have infant mortality rates similar to Africa and fuck all health care etc Do you really think the war will benefit that layer of society?

If Corporate USA can maintain it dominant position, their welfare benefits and their abilities to consume are not under threat. While if the USA goes in an economical recess, they are the first to feel it. Hence they are in fact the first to benefit in reality although they aren't perceiving it as such and their situation doesn't change one bit. It is because it doesn't change that they benefit.

salaam.

 

[TAE]

I hope this will be investigated further:

A number of interviewees revealed that the military will attempt to frame innocent bystanders as insurgents, often after panicked American troops have fired into groups of unarmed Iraqis. The veterans said the troops involved would round up any survivors and accuse them of being in the resistance while planting Kalashnikov AK47 rifles beside corpses to make it appear that they had died in combat.

Sounds like the US military knows that there are lots of innocent people in Iraqi prisons.

 

[tbaldwin]

By that rate you'd never comment on anything. I still think it's worth publishing this kinda thing though cos it does bring home some of the horrors of what is going on and shows what a load of bollox Bush/Blair/Brown speak when they talk about democracy and freedom.



The stuff I've seen has said the same. Although the longer you're in brutal situations the more dehumanised people become.

There are more than enough examples in history of large sections of people who are happily prepared to kill, torture and rape, even if they are the minority.

I think it had more than a hint of oppurtunism from the Independent?
Yeah War is a nasty business but why the fixation on particular wars and why largely ignore others.......Circulation,circulation,circulation....The Independent really reminds me of the Mail at times. But of course their target audience is the Guardians readership.

 

[cockneyrebel]

If Corporate USA can maintain it dominant position, their welfare benefits and their abilities to consume are not under threat. While if the USA goes in an economical recess, they are the first to feel it. Hence they are in fact the first to benefit in reality although they aren't perceiving it as such and their situation doesn't change one bit. It is because it doesn't change that they benefit.

A lot of working class Americans don't get any welfare benefits and live in total poverty.

 

[cockneyrebel]

I think it had more than a hint of oppurtunism from the Independent?

It's still true though.

Haven't got any time for the Independent but not as bad as The Guardian and Cooper Brown and Catherine Townsend make me laugh.

 

[Aldebaran]

A lot of working class Americans don't get any welfare benefits and live in total poverty.

All US'ers I ever met and know personally deny such people exist. They claim a US'er who is poor in the USA is to be counted as "middle class" in the rest of what they call the "developped world".

salaam.

 

[STFC]

All US'ers I ever met and know personally deny such people exist. They claim a US'er who is poor in the USA is to be counted as "middle class" in the rest of what they call the "developped world".

salaam.

You know some strange people then. My girlfriends brother lives in the US and when he and his family went on holiday in the south last year they were absolutely stunned by some of the poverty they saw - people living in roadside shacks etc.

 

[cockneyrebel]

All US'ers I ever met and know personally deny such people exist. They claim a US'er who is poor in the USA is to be counted as "middle class" in the rest of what they call the "developped world".

Absolute rubbish. Infant mortality rates in the ghettos and parts of the american south are worst than parts of Africa.

 

[ZAMB]

Poverty is no excuse for allowing oneself to be indoctrinated into being a disposable killing machine for the US govt and large oil companies.

American soldiers are brainwashed in training.
http://slingshot.tao.ca/displaybi.php?0082025