7/7 bombers 'used charity cash'

[Jonti]

This language is my language

Why do it to other folks?

Other "folks"?

...

Yep.

As in people. See below, number 4. For the sake of clarity: not vermin, cockroaches, scum or untermensch. Just people, OK?

Seems like you may have some kind of a problem with plain and simple English, so here's a little help for you.

Main Entry:1 folk
Pronunciation: \ˈfōk\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural folk or folks
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English folc; akin to Old High German folc people
Date: before 12th century

1 archaic : a group of kindred tribes forming a nation : people
2: the great proportion of the members of a people that determines the group character and that tends to preserve its characteristic form of civilization and its customs, arts and crafts, legends, traditions, and superstitions from generation to generation
3 plural : a certain kind, class, or group of people <old folks> <just plain folk> <country folk> <media folk>
4 plural : people generally
5 folks plural : the persons of one's own family; especially : parents
6: folk music

'sOK. You don't need to thank me

 

[Dravinian]

evidence of what though?

evidence that 2 disenfranchised local young people were helped by a project presumably aimed at reaching disenfranchised local young people?

or evidence that pudsey bear told them to do it?

disenfranchised local young people?

Not terrorists then? Is there a problem with admitting that these "young people" were terrorists? We seem to be talking around it, dismissing it, pretending it's irrelevent. Just wondered if there was some issue I was unaware of here.

You don't think when you blow yourself up and kill yourself and several other people that this is a somewhat defining point in your life and that you may well be judged on previous actions in the light that you went on to blow yourself up?

 

[Dravinian]

no, the other folks who're being effectively slandered by everyone engaging in that line of questioning.

I mean how dare we attempt to find out if Charity money was used by two terrorists who worked there, how dare we. Clearly an attack on Islam.

are the former truestees of the charity, and the accountant who signed off their accounts, and the funding officer for children in need, and the charity commission... but mainly the charities trustees IMO.

Shouldn't they be investigated? Or should we just assume that because they are muslim they can do no wrong?

for these 2 volunteers to have syphoned off cash from this project the trustees (treasurer in particular) would either have had to be completely incompetant, or complicit in it - no other way it could have happened.

And you don't think that is worth investigating then, apparently not since you seem to think any questioning is slander against those other people working there.

so IMO people should have some evidence before going around dishing out bullshit innuendo about people who were trying to do some good in their community.

Funny, when I make accusations based on some reasonably logical reasoning, it is slander.

You sit there and say these people, who you know nothing about, who may well have helped in the creation and distribution of terrorist material...knowingly....were trying to do some good in their community.

Yeah perhaps, but good for who? The extremist view or the centrist one?

You don't know, but when we ask questions, we are slandering, when you make statements forwarding your agenda that muslims are all wonderful people and any report that questions this is an attack on Islam, thats ok?

Rather than slagging these people off, you might want to think about the very real possibility that they were some of the only people who actually made any attempt to reach these kids and divert them from the course they eventually ended up on. OK so they ultimately failed, but then it seems like the 2 kids left the project soon after 911 - or to put it another way, after the US / UK invaded Afghanistan.

And you have to accept the exact opposite.

You don't know, I don't know, we speculate, when I speculate that it may have been bad, I am slandering, when you speculate that these people "might" "may" be the light shining from heaven itself....thats ok?

Yet all I ask is an investigation, you just want to assume the sun shines out of their arses.

SO what do you think was the most likely trigger for them becoming radicalised and eventually bombing london? The US / UK invading Afghanistan, and later Iraq (as I believe they stated in their videos) or some outdoor adventure weekend, and using some computer equipment funded by pudsey bear 6-8 years earlier?

Notice that, 6 to 8 years earlier, that would be much earlier then the invasion of the Iraq war?

is that what you are afraid?

Of course, I didn't see it til now.

You are worried that it WILL be proven that they were extremists long before 2001, long before the invasion of Iraq.

Then of course the claim that British Foreign Policy is to blame begins to wane, it begins to look a bit suspect, and now we are talking decades old foreign policy, as many are quick to tell us, the empire is long gone. Decades old foreign policy committed by people long dead, doesn't seem quite as romantic a reason to kill people as the invasion of Iraq, recent times.

Now I see why the unmitigated defense of terrorists, bit worried your entire argument will fall apart.

 

[butchersapron]

Don't you ever fucking shut up?

 

[Das Uberdog]

In the absence of any other figures of any credibility then the 2k figure has to be accepted to a certain extent.

What!? So because no-one else has made up some random figures you find palatable (for no rational reason) you 'have' to simply accept any bogus stat that MI5 pull out of their arse along the way? Why? What evidence have they cited to back up their claim? What evidence do you have to say there are more than 2k terrorists? I'll give you a headstart on this one, 'hunches' aren't evidence of anything other than you being a knob. Now have you got evidence or not? No you haven't. You have no idea, and your claim to 'over 2k' is no more valid than someone randomnly suggesting that every Muslim second born son is immediately inducted on a terrorist training course.

There is no reason for you to believe what you believe. There is no reason for you to believe anything other than there are 'some' terrorists in the Uk (made plain by their actual showings) and that these groups number no more than around three or four in Britain's major cities. That is all we know and can logically extrapolate from the facts. Anything more is totally and utterly bogus scaremongering.

Maybe you should take your head out of your theories and have a look around and accept that there are different but equally valid opinions out there.

Take my "head out of my theories"? What on earth does that phrase mean when it's at home? I'm not putting forward any theories, I have at most corrected your incorrect terminology (where's my fucking thanks?), whilst pleading with you to substantiate your mad rumours with a semblence of evidence. Evidence. Evidence. Evidence.

Provide Evidence

Its called being balanced

It's called playing into the hands of the Islamophobic media by regurgitating (and even enhancing) their ludicrous statistics on the threat of terrorism in the Uk, is what it's called. I don't think you're Islamophobic, I just think you are so incomprehensibly politically un-savvy reading your posts makes me want to stick needles in my eyes whilst slamming my head in a door.

 

[Dravinian]

It's called playing into the hands of the Islamophobic media by regurgitating (and even enhancing) their ludicrous statistics on the threat of terrorism in the Uk, is what it's called. I don't think you're Islamophobic, I just think you are so incomprehensibly politically un-savvy reading your posts makes me want to stick needles in my eyes whilst slamming my head in a door.

Like everyone who has an agenda, you can't help but view the world through your agenda.

The Islmaphobic media that accepts the statistics of terrorism in the UK.

It is no different and no less insane then any other conspiracy theory. Firstly it implies that the Government is actively against Islam. Bit of a stretch to be honest. Secondly it implies that because of this hatred of Islam, they have produced figures that are exaggerated. Thirdly it then implies that the press agree with this agenda and don't question the figures.

None of them really make sense.

Lets come back to the real world, take of our agenda laden glasses off and look again at the situation.

The Government sees an opportunity to bring in some rather draconian ideals on data collection, storage and use. They use the vague threat of Terrorism to forward this agenda. MI5 and others under some political pressure enforce the image that this is the case. The British media, being the British media, is somewhat split on the idea with many papers, at least those owned by different people, taking a different stance on each seperate case of civil liberties.

See that is the reality we are all living, the fantasy you are living in where everything is an attack on Islam, is really just that, a fantasy.

 

[Aldebaran]

If you look back at my previous post I drew a comparison with the active terrorists and the supporters who turn a blind eye - do keep up.

Can you list all those "supporters who turn a blind eye" because you sound as if you know them all in person. I find that extremely interesting.

I'll say it again 'I have an issue with Islamism and its attitude to womens and LGBT rights and religious freedom not with Muslims as a people'.

I'm not going to nitpick on your terminology (like "Islamism") but now we have something in common.

I have theological differences and disagreements with Islam but then I have theological disagreements with Christianity, Orthodox Judaism, Neo Paganism and athiesm.

You studied theology of Islam? We have again something in common. Where did you do that?

salaam.

 

[free spirit]

disenfranchised local young people?

Not terrorists then? Is there a problem with admitting that these "young people" were terrorists? We seem to be talking around it, dismissing it, pretending it's irrelevent. Just wondered if there was some issue I was unaware of here.

You don't think when you blow yourself up and kill yourself and several other people that this is a somewhat defining point in your life and that you may well be judged on previous actions in the light that you went on to blow yourself up?

no not terrorists - when these 2 kids were involved in the project they were just that, young people (I'm speculating about them being disenfranchised at that point, but reading between the lines I'd say that was a fairly apt description of them at that stage).

unless you're trying to make out that because they died as terrorists they must have been born as terrorists - is this your point of view?

it's an important distinction to make because the major weapon this country has to counter home grown Jihadi terrorists is community groups just like this one appears to have been that can reach out to these pissed off young kids before they go down the terrorist path and divert them onto a different path. If these groups are then going to risk being accused years later of aiding terrorists because a couple of the kids they tried to help became terrorists several years after ending their association with the organisation, then nobody in their right mind is going to volunteer to set up and run these types of organisations, which will inevitably lead to even more pissed off directionless young muslim kids ending up following the path to violent jihad.

 

[free spirit]

so, let's have a look at what leeds learning partnership says about Leeds Community School

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Leeds Community School is an organisation that is actively involved in projects that encourage community cohesion.

The Youth Support Service helps young people in the Beeston and Holbeck area of the city make the most of education, training and employment opportunities available on their doorstep.

Two drop-in sessions a week are held for young men, giving them the opportunity to socialise through pool, table football, arts and crafts, board games and video games. But they can also seek advice about employment prospects and training opportunities through one-to-one support work.

Many of the lads take part in weekly football sessions at South Leeds Stadium. Three teams have been set up, who play in a mini-league to encourage community cohesion between the different cultures in the area.

Outdoor Pursuits
Young women also attend weekly drop-in sessions at the same youth centre, although on a different night. Their programme includes outdoor pursuits, healthy eating, beauty therapy and sports.

An important element of the work is for Asha Khan to carry out home visits and build links with the parents in order to emphasise the importance of education, training and sport.

Youth workers from the community support the young people in a culturally sensitive manner. Through the Youth Support Service, the young people learn communication and social skills. They also break down the barriers that arise from a lack of understanding of different cultures.

Leeds Community School works in partnership with other agencies in the area, such as Connexions, to ensure young people have a wide range of activities available to them and provision is not doubled up.

Through outreach work at the local schools, young people are given an enthusiasm to learn. To this end, extra tuition has been set up outside of school to boost the attainment levels of young people in the area.

The Youth Support Service helps to release the full potential of every young person that it works with.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Case Study[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Vaneeta, 15, felt she was struggling with her information technology skills at school and needed support to prepare her for exams. She was also concerned with the lack of provision for girls in the Beeston/Holbeck area.

Getting involved with Leeds Community School gave Vaneeta the opportunity to brush up the skills required to succeed in school and interact with young people her own age.

Joining the youth club has encouraged Vaneeta to change her lifestyle. She has developed more friendships and learned about different cultures and how to mix with people from different backgrounds.

Vaneeta said: "I have become a lot more friendlier and outgoing since joining the youth club. It is a place to go so that I don't feel bored. I have definitely gained more friends. I enjoy the laid-back atmosphere of the youth club. It is a nice place to chill out and learning something new."[/FONT]

fuck me that sounds like a proper jihadi training facility, I think it's shocking that children in need could possibly consider funding such a place

 

[Citizen66]

Don't you ever fucking shut up?

LOL

Apparently not.

 

[Dravinian]

no not terrorists - when these 2 kids were involved in the project they were just that, young people (I'm speculating about them being disenfranchised at that point, but reading between the lines I'd say that was a fairly apt description of them at that stage).

Ahh speculation, reasonable, but one might ask how come when I do it, its slander, when you do it, its fairly apt.

unless you're trying to make out that because they died as terrorists they must have been born as terrorists - is this your point of view?

No, see I was being speculative, I was being speculative that Bookshops make great places in which to continue terrorist activities, produce and pass on to those that want it, terrorist material, without appearing suspicious.

I was being somewhat influened by the witness who says that at the time he worked there, the same time these young disenfranchied people were there that they were showing extremist views.

it's an important distinction to make because the major weapon this country has to counter home grown Jihadi terrorists is community groups just like this one appears to have been that can reach out to these pissed off young kids before they go down the terrorist path and divert them onto a different path. If these groups are then going to risk being accused years later of aiding terrorists because a couple of the kids they tried to help became terrorists several years after ending their association with the organisation, then nobody in their right mind is going to volunteer to set up and run these types of organisations, which will inevitably lead to even more pissed off directionless young muslim kids ending up following the path to violent jihad.

There really isn't a lot you can do against extremist jihadi mentality, it requires a certain disconnection from reality to even accept the main ideas. It takes brainwashing, it takes years of force feeding an idea that the world is a big conspiracy to keep you down, it takes material, it takes people.

Education is the first tool to breaking that. But alone it is worthless if it is delivered by the 'corrupt western infidels that run the world and are crushing Islam' when every report, when every question, when every investigation is displayed as the western attempt to destroy Islam, you play into the very hands of those you think you can assuage.

 

[free spirit]

I mean how dare we attempt to find out if Charity money was used by two terrorists who worked there, how dare we. Clearly an attack on Islam.

Shouldn't they be investigated? Or should we just assume that because they are muslim they can do no wrong?

And you don't think that is worth investigating then, apparently not since you seem to think any questioning is slander against those other people working there.

that community group and bookshop has been gone over with a fine toothcomb (and several jackboots) since 7/7, if there was any evidence to be found that this cash was in any way used to fund terrorist activities then those responsible would have been hauled away and prosecuted.

ffs they even prosecuted one of the management committee members for possessing a cd with a copy of an aq 'training manual' that had been downloaded from the US department of justice website, and that they'd not even known was on the disk - they're now doing 16 months for it...

if they can prosecute someone on the management committee for such a fucking ridiculous 'crime' then I think it's fairly safe to assume they'd have prosecuted the entire management committee if they'd found a shred of evidence that they'd knowlingly or unknowingly allowed any of their funds to be used for terrorist purposes.

Funny, when I make accusations based on some reasonably logical reasoning, it is slander.

You sit there and say these people, who you know nothing about, who may well have helped in the creation and distribution of terrorist material...knowingly....were trying to do some good in their community.

Yeah perhaps, but good for who? The extremist view or the centrist one?

You don't know, but when we ask questions, we are slandering, when you make statements forwarding your agenda that muslims are all wonderful people and any report that questions this is an attack on Islam, thats ok?

I'm making statements based on the knowledge that the police have gone over that place and everyone involved in it as hard as they can, and yet they're not prosecuting anyone for anything along the lines of what you / the editor alleging.

that to me is pretty good evidence to back up my assertion that any notion of any of the £20k being syphoned off to fund terrorist activity is unfounded bollocks - your evidence to back up your assertion is what exactly?

Yet all I ask is an investigation, you just want to assume the sun shines out of their arses.

what exactly do you think the police have been doing for the last few years when they've been raiding the bookshop, impounding books that half of urban 75 probably own (or want to own) and calling them material likely to incite terrorism (or however they phrased it).

do you not think they might have thought to have checked the accounts first as it'd be far easier to gain some convictions for actually funding terrorists rather than for flogging john pilger books criticising UK government policy.

Notice that, 6 to 8 years earlier, that would be much earlier then the invasion of the Iraq war?

is that what you are afraid?

Of course, I didn't see it til now.

You are worried that it WILL be proven that they were extremists long before 2001, long before the invasion of Iraq.

are you being deliberately thick?

the funding was given in 1998-1999, the bombings were carried out in 2005, so the funding was given 6-7 years before the bombings.

but from the following quote in Udo's earlier post, it's pretty clear that they became properly radicalised around the time of the attack on afghanistan.

He adds that media reports that the 7 July London bombers were linked to the shop are inaccurate. Mohammad Sidique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer had been volunteers at the shop, but had left in late 2001 around the time of the US attack on Afghanistan.

Tanveer said, “The boys became hardliners and left the shop. Since then they’ve never been back to the shop at all. They’ve had nothing to do with it for a number of years now.”

It also seems a bit odd that if the bookshop / school were such centres of jihadi recruitment / funding, that the pair would leave the shop when they became more hardline.

Then of course the claim that British Foreign Policy is to blame begins to wane, it begins to look a bit suspect, and now we are talking decades old foreign policy, as many are quick to tell us, the empire is long gone. Decades old foreign policy committed by people long dead, doesn't seem quite as romantic a reason to kill people as the invasion of Iraq, recent times.

Now I see why the unmitigated defense of terrorists, bit worried your entire argument will fall apart.

Fuck right off you obnoxious prick. Where in anything I've written on this or any other thread do you see me making an inmitigated defense of terrorists?

I'm calling this story bollocks, and dangerous bollocks at that, and defending both the right, and the need for community groups such as this one to be allowed and encouraged to engage with the most radicalised of the young muslims as this is the ONLY way we'll ever successfully stop young british kids turning into suicide bombers.

erm actually thinking about it, if the UK government didn't totally ride rough shod over the views of it's people as demonstrated by the biggest peaceful mass demonstration in UK history, and launch illegal invasions of countries that posed no threat to us leading to the deaths of around a million innocent muslims, then that too might help to take the heat out of the jihadists fire, and give some weight to those arguing that people should make their point peacefully in a democratic society... bit of a tough arguement to make these days when the government so blatantly ignores the views of its own people.

 

[free spirit]

Ahh speculation, reasonable, but one might ask how come when I do it, its slander, when you do it, its fairly apt.



No, see I was being speculative, I was being speculative that Bookshops make great places in which to continue terrorist activities, produce and pass on to those that want it, terrorist material, without appearing suspicious.

I was being somewhat influened by the witness who says that at the time he worked there, the same time these young disenfranchied people were there that they were showing extremist views.



There really isn't a lot you can do against extremist jihadi mentality, it requires a certain disconnection from reality to even accept the main ideas. It takes brainwashing, it takes years of force feeding an idea that the world is a big conspiracy to keep you down, it takes material, it takes people.

Education is the first tool to breaking that. But alone it is worthless if it is delivered by the 'corrupt western infidels that run the world and are crushing Islam' when every report, when every question, when every investigation is displayed as the western attempt to destroy Islam, you play into the very hands of those you think you can assuage.

what's your solution then?

lock up any vaguely asian looking kid who's ever watched a you tube video of a US tank being blown up by insurgents in Iraq?

or how about we just cut to the chase and round up all the muslims and stick them in big labour camps until the war against terror is over... can't be too careful can we.

 

[Das Uberdog]

See that is the reality we are all living, the fantasy you are living in where everything is an attack on Islam, is really just that, a fantasy.

OH MY GOD

 

[Das Uberdog]

No, see I was being speculative

Yes, being speculative with no evidence. Provide evidence for your speculation, or admit it is groundless.

tbh it's needless you try now that several others have already blown apart any information you could possibly push forward, but there you go. Perhaps that's a sign you should give it a rest?

 

[Dravinian]

what's your solution then?

lock up any vaguely asian looking kid who's ever watched a you tube video of a US tank being blown up by insurgents in Iraq?

or how about we just cut to the chase and round up all the muslims and stick them in big labour camps until the war against terror is over... can't be too careful can we.

Of course, there is your way, or there is the extreme way.

How about we continue what we are doing, offering a free education, offering a free press, a democracy and investigating terrorists as best we can.

Without every single action taken being used as justification of the wests hatred of Islam, without every single story being seen as some conspiracy of anti-Islam, that every word, every deed and every action isn't reported by some as Islamophobic just because the story involves Islam and or Muslims and isn't some puff piece.

 

[Dravinian]

Yes, being speculative with no evidence. Provide evidence for your speculation, or admit it is groundless.

tbh it's needless you try now that several others have already blown apart any information you could possibly push forward, but there you go. Perhaps that's a sign you should give it a rest?

And again, there is evidence, it is circumstantial, but it is evidence nonetheless.

Blown apart any information I could possibly want to push forward? Like what, glean one item from my many posts.

As I said earlier, I think you are so far into your conspiracy fantasy that you see it everywhere.

 

[Das Uberdog]

It is not circumstantial evidence - at the very best it is a wild stab-in-the-dark hypothesis grounded in no fact.

You know I have a friend who used to hate Jill Dando? Perhaps HE killed her...

 

[free spirit]

btw - if anyone wants a copy of the file the management committee member of that centre was jailed for, I believe the link to it on the US department of justice website is the 9th file down on this google page.

I'm fucked if I'm going to download it though, or even link directly to it, though I guess I'd probably be ok as a non muslim, and the editor's non muslim too, so he'd probably be OK if I had linked to it direct... but that's the file this guy's serving 16 months in prison for, and being branded as a terrorist for owning.

talk about clutching at straws when it comes to inventing new ways to seriously piss of a community and make it loose whatever little scraps of faith it might have had in this countries criminal justice system.

I note they aren't prosecuting the US DOJ for distributing terrorist material... fuck knows why they thought it'd be a good idea to host it on their website mind.

 

[free spirit]

Of course, there is your way, or there is the extreme way.

How about we continue what we are doing, offering a free education, offering a free press, a democracy and investigating terrorists as best we can.

Without every single action taken being used as justification of the wests hatred of Islam, without every single story being seen as some conspiracy of anti-Islam, that every word, every deed and every action isn't reported by some as Islamophobic just because the story involves Islam and or Muslims and isn't some puff piece.

do you actually understand that a free press means allowing pissed off muslim kids to copy, edit and distribute video footage of US/ UK tanks being blown up in Iraq and Afghanistan?

or should there be limits to this free press you're on about, and if so are these limits going to be applied evenly across the board? and where is the line to be drawn?

and that a democracy that's not a sham would be one that took into account the views of it's people when they protested peacefully in record numbers against a controversial invasion of a country that offered no credible threat to this country?

and when you say investigating terrorists as best we can, do you actually mean locking up any muslim you suspect of being a terrorist sympathiser for 28 days without charge or need for any evidence, then simply releasing them back into the community when you feel like it... fuck the psycological impact of weeks of solitary confinement, fuck the jobs they've lost / kids they've had taken into care / relationships that have been broken up.... yes they should just consider themselves lucky they live in this free and democratic country and not some draconian police state.

 

[Dravinian]

do you actually understand that a free press means allowing pissed off muslim kids to copy, edit and distribute video footage of US/ UK tanks being blown up in Iraq and Afghanistan?

or should there be limits to this free press you're on about, and if so are these limits going to be applied evenly across the board? and where is the line to be drawn?

and that a democracy that's not a sham would be one that took into account the views of it's people when they protested peacefully in record numbers against a controversial invasion of a country that offered no credible threat to this country?

and when you say investigating terrorists as best we can, do you actually mean locking up any muslim you suspect of being a terrorist sympathiser for 28 days without charge or need for any evidence, then simply releasing them back into the community when you feel like it... fuck the psycological impact of weeks of solitary confinement, fuck the jobs they've lost / kids they've had taken into care / relationships that have been broken up.... yes they should just consider themselves lucky they live in this free and democratic country and not some draconian police state.

Again, your way or the extreme way.

A democracy is not a sham because people protested and were ignored. Democracy doesn't work like that, you don't get to make decisions ad hoc. You elect people to make those decisions and they do.

A free press isn't a sham just because there are limits to it, no we don't really allow them to show dead bodies, or gore, or pornography or abuse. Odd that. Why should we allow muslim youths to do the same and to celebrate it?

I have NEVER agreed to 28 day detention, but just because I disagree with you on one aspect, of course I have to agree with the opposition on EVERY aspect of their decision making.

So this means, by your logic, that you must agree with blowing up civilians? I mean, if I have to agree to everything spoken by the people who disagree with you, surely you have to agree with everything spoken by the people who agree with you, and some of those people are saying yes, it is ok to blow up civilians.

Or do you want to grow up and accept that while I don't agree with you on many things, that does not mean I agree with every single decision and aspect of life in Britain?

 

[Das Uberdog]

You're an actual moron.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

basically, um........

 

[free spirit]

I have NEVER agreed to 28 day detention, but just because I disagree with you on one aspect, of course I have to agree with the opposition on EVERY aspect of their decision making.

So this means, by your logic, that you must agree with blowing up civilians? I mean, if I have to agree to everything spoken by the people who disagree with you, surely you have to agree with everything spoken by the people who agree with you, and some of those people are saying yes, it is ok to blow up civilians.

Or do you want to grow up and accept that while I don't agree with you on many things, that does not mean I agree with every single decision and aspect of life in Britain?

erm, but you said in your previous post 'how about we continue what we're doing...'

which would imply that you considered that we were already doing these things the right way - and 28 days detention is a key plank of the current method of 'investigating terrorists as best we can' so don't act all surprised when I ask you whether you support that policy.

to make a comparison, if I was to post that 'al qaeda should continue what they are doing' then your point about me supporting the blowing up of civilians would be fair comment - that's not what I wrote, so it isn't. On the other hand everything I've written is fair comment based on what you've written.

if you don't like that then I suggest you stop and think before you press the submit reply button as I can only go on what you actually write, not what you really meant to write but it all got mixed up somewhere between your brain and fingers... I'm not actually psychic.

 

[free spirit]

anyway, putting all that bollocks to one side, we now have some common ground.

you don't support 28 days detention without trial, so as this has almost exclusively been used against the islamic community (so far), would you also agree with me that this policy is a negative one in that it creates very real additional grievances within the islamic community, and reinforces the perception that they can't trust the british legal system / government... as well as reinforcing the jihadist notion that it's all part of the war against islam.

basically IMO 28 days and the associated heavy handed policing of muslim communities will act as a recruiting tool for the jihadists in a similar way to the way the sus laws being applied increased resentment among the black population, or police tactics in Northern Ireland drove catholics to the IRA.

do you agree with that?

 

[free spirit]

A democracy is not a sham because people protested and were ignored. Democracy doesn't work like that, you don't get to make decisions ad hoc. You elect people to make those decisions and they do.

but the main arguement people use against the use of violence to make political points is that in a democracy people should use peaceful protest methods to get their point across. This arguement falls down if the government then totally ignores the biggest peaceful demonstration in the countries history and just goes ahead and does what it wants regardless.

IMO the fact the government chose to ignore the expressed will of so many people in such a cavalier fashion was / is a major factor in driving many muslims towards the idea that they'd need to use more extreme measures to be taken seriously.

A free press isn't a sham just because there are limits to it, no we don't really allow them to show dead bodies, or gore, or pornography or abuse. Odd that. Why should we allow muslim youths to do the same and to celebrate it?

so a free press is free so long as it doesn't show the actual consequences of the wars the government instigates?

well that's great - we'll all carry on in blissfull ignorance while the bodies pile up then shall we?

 

[Dravinian]

you don't support 28 days detention without trial, so as this has almost exclusively been used against the islamic community (so far), would you also agree with me that this policy is a negative one in that it creates very real additional grievances within the islamic community, and reinforces the perception that they can't trust the british legal system / government... as well as reinforcing the jihadist notion that it's all part of the war against islam.

No.

I would say it was an attack on everybodies civil liberties and singling out one group just re-enforces the ridiculous conspiracy that I pointed out to you earlier.

Does the law state Muslim? Brown? Islam? Or does it apply equally to everyone?

So why should one group feel more aggrieved by it then another?

basically IMO 28 days and the associated heavy handed policing of muslim communities will act as a recruiting tool for the jihadists in a similar way to the way the sus laws being applied increased resentment among the black population, or police tactics in Northern Ireland drove catholics to the IRA.

do you agree with that?

No.

I think certain groups will martyr themselves on the spike of what they perceive to be rules that are only aimed at them, because it suits their agenda to do so. The fact that they do this, doesn't actually make it true or right.

To answer your next post.

Just because you have a point to make, doesn't make you right. That is what democracy is about. You can peacefully make your opinion known, but that doesn't mean you get to resort to violence just because no one agrees with you.

This is why you believing it drives young muslims to violence is just plainly ridiculous, so we all go along with everything that the young muslims want or face their wrath? That is our choices is it?

Remember, this is YOU saying that, not me. Then you want to moan about 28 days and how it is only being applied against one group....that would be the same group that has decided that if the Government doesn't follow what they believe to be the public 'will' that they get to turn to violence? That group yeah?

Do you not see Free Spirit, you can't be on all sides of the fence at the same time. You can't complain about the unfair use of laws on the Muslim community in one sentence, then point out that it isn't surprising that young muslim men are turning to violence when they simply don't get their own way.

Don't you realise that you just admitted the Government is right to use those laws? Don't you realise that you just explained why they are being used almost exclusively against young Muslims?

A Free Press is a free press so long as it prints stuff that doesn't actually make people physically sick over breakfast.

You may want to paint that picture however you like, but our Press is one of the free'est in the word, it is as free as it can be as far as I am concerned. You want some magically unrealistic version of free to be the only acceptable one, but that is just plain silly.

Just for reasons of clarification, the Free Press, is defined as a Press free from Political or Religious control. Not free from legal control. We have a press that is free from Religious or Political control. Hence we have a Free Press.

 

[free spirit]

No.

I would say it was an attack on everybodies civil liberties and singling out one group just re-inforces the ridiculous conspiracy that I pointed out to you earlier.

Does the law state Muslim? Brown? Islam? Or does it apply equally to everyone?

So why should one group feel more aggrieved by it then another?

oh I see, so the 28 days law has been applied equally across all sections of UK society has it?

you are taking the piss I presume?


eta - you're right about it being an attack on everybodies civil liberties though, it's just that they are currently using it disproportionately to target muslims. If you're concerned about civil liberties then it makes no sense to deny this fairly obvious fact - remember the old 'first they came for the jews / communists / trade unionist and I did nothing... then they came for me and there was nobody left to defend me' line. Well at the moment they're coming for the muslims, but I can remember fine well that just before 911 it was the anarchist / anticapitalist protest movement they were coming for (and trying to label as terrorists), and I'm sure they'll be coming back for us and using the same laws against us soon enough if we don't stand up and defend their current target and make them back off.

 

[Dravinian]

oh I see, so the 28 days law has been applied equally across all sections of UK society has it?

you are taking the piss I presume?

No I am pointing out the law can be equally applied to everyone, so everyone should be upset about it.

Your argument is that it is unequally applied against some sections of our society, but you also went to great lengths to point out why young muslim men were turning to violence. So are the two not contradictory?

How can you explain why young muslim men are turning to violence, but then be upset that 28 day detention seems to be getting used against young muslim men more then others.

Well wouldn't that be because they are turning to violence to further a political agenda, where other sections of society are not?

By your words.

 

[Jonti]

...
I note they aren't prosecuting the US DOJ for distributing terrorist material... fuck knows why they thought it'd be a good idea to host it on their website mind.

Well, the thing is there's no reason not to. I mean, compared to the US Army Manual Field Guide it's actually pretty useless; and the US Manual Army Field Guide is available to the every squaddie and the general public, of course.