Er ... a police officer ... she didn;t make the law, she is paid by us all to enforce the law we, as a society, have agreed. You clearly do not agree with the whole concept of laws per se. Fine, while you are big and string and you can look after yourself ... but what about when you are old and frail and vulnerable?fela fan said:
60 per cent of drivers stopped do not give their true identity
- Thread starter snorbury
- Start date
weltweit
Well-Known Member
You cannot normally drive a journey of 2 hours in Great Britain without seeing a police car, monitoring the traffic, checking up on you.
You can drive all you like in Germany and you will hardly ever see a police car at all. Germany, as a state, is just not so paranoid about its drivers behaviour.
I prefer Germany.
You can drive all you like in Germany and you will hardly ever see a police car at all. Germany, as a state, is just not so paranoid about its drivers behaviour.
I prefer Germany.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
detective-boy said:
Can we take it then detective-boy that you are so into this society that you never break a law, never even break the speed limit?
"we, as a society, have agreed." some of us feel more or less a part of that society when we watch policemen and women routinely break the law, when we watch politicians flouting their moral pronouncements, when we see Blair's own children buying drugs in London ..
Perhaps you feel a greater attachment to this "society" thing than some others do ...
detective-boy said:
FUCKING BULLSHIT MAN. Soceity nor me agree to me having to wear a bloody seatbelt. If i don't want to wear one then that's fucking that.
Who is society eh?? Police are the protectors of the hijackers of society, not society.
If i don't like a law, and in breaking it i cause no problem then fuckin break it i will.
Just like loads of police officers. They smoke dope, speed in their cars, drink drive, drunkenly smash up their wives, and so on, just like the rest of us mere mortals, or 'society' in your words.
And they're police officers, paid to uphold the law that 'society' has passed. You're living in planet dreamland mate.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
Motorists' reactions to this technology are directly linked. If the police could simply say "we don't store your fingerprints unless you're convicted, and it's a serious offence not to destroy them otherwise" it would do far more to reassure the pulled-over driver than new types of tech oversight.detective-boy said:
The ultimate purpose is, of course, to database the entire population. Tony Blair recently admitted this is exactly what he wants to occur. The current situation is simply taking us further towards that goal.detective-boy said:
As another poster said, soon everyone's fingerprints will be on their ID cards. This technology could easily be the intermediate step: everyone who's stopped and searched has to provide fingerprints. (And I'm sure DNA will be added to the list. They're already working on technology to extract DNA from fingerprints!)
Wean people off their freedoms slowly and they don't miss them.
Backatcha Bandit
is not taking your calls
detective-boy said:
cybertect said:
Technical point;
Unless the 'device' contains a complete record of the database, the system must operate by transmitting the 'fingerprint' to a remote computer which does the checking (presumably via the TETRA network).
Therefore, faith in the idea that an individual (and even the Police) can 'verify' the deletion of the record 'at the roadside' is somewhat misplaced.
We have no reason as far as I can see to suppose that once digital fingerprint scanners are part of the police arsenal, they will not be subject to 'function creep'
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weltweit said:
Some links - the contents of which you may find disturbing:
ANPR database retention rules - Parliamentary Answer claims 2 years when it is actually 6 years or longer
National ANPR database - guilt by association on the roads
DVLA database details sold to criminals - implications for the proposed National Identity Register
More here
It's called 'Talon Spectrum' and is manufacured by Appian - http://www.appian-tech.com/products/anpr_software.html
IIRC the ANPR database should by now be up and running, having been delayed arlier in the year to allow for it's expansion to accommodate logging 50 million vehicle movements per day - up from 35 million.
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One of the most successful (and IMO most likely to proliferate) yet seldom mentioned areas of biometric identification technologies is that of 'Gait Recognition'.
Lots on that here: http://www.isis.ecs.soton.ac.uk/research/gait.html
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Finally... for Fela - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4595949.stm
Backatcha Bandit said:Finally... for Fela - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4595949.stm
Bloody hell!! I used to love having a spliff and then driving off into the sticks with my music on. Stopping here or there for another. And i was a very careful and slow, if forgetful, driver.
Luckily they never had these gadgets when i was in my 20s. Probably would have gone to jail.
Where will it all stop in britain? The roads there are literally hundreds of times safer than here in thailand. Driving in england is a pure joy when i get back for a visit compared to where i live.
Britain is afflicted by some kind of madness when it comes to security and safety. So so way over the top.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Yes Britain is obsessed with road policing and speed.
I can drive from Munich to Berlin at 130mph on the Autobahn, those slower will move out of my way, and I will give way to faster cars.
In towns in Germany they do take speed seriously, cameras are set up and people fined etc, and Germans are quite law abiding people imho.
But Germans build cars that are safe at speed, and guess what people want to buy them, wonder why they still have an automobile industry - and Great Britain?
I can drive from Munich to Berlin at 130mph on the Autobahn, those slower will move out of my way, and I will give way to faster cars.
In towns in Germany they do take speed seriously, cameras are set up and people fined etc, and Germans are quite law abiding people imho.
But Germans build cars that are safe at speed, and guess what people want to buy them, wonder why they still have an automobile industry - and Great Britain?
Backatcha Bandit
is not taking your calls
RE: Roadside drug testing
From the Hose of Commons Debate 9th October 2006:
From the Hose of Commons Debate 9th October 2006:
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2006-10-09c.65.0
Where have I said that?weltweit said:
If there is a law which the majority have agreed and I get caught breaking it, then it is not for me to whinge about the police officer or parking warden or whatever doing the job that the majority have paid them for but for me to argue for a change in the law.
Do go a revise how the legislature works with the executive and the judiciary you fucking moron.fela fan said:
The people elect their Parliament. The Parliament passes the law. Ergo the law is passed by the people (i.e. society).
They won't get very far with that then.Azrael said:
A DNA profile is effectively a mechanical breakdown of the complex DNA molecule with the bits then seperated across an electrical current providing a unique "bar-code" style pattern made up of coloured bits of actual molecules.
A fingerprint is a pattern of ridges on the skin of the fingertips.
The fingeprint may originate in the individuals DNA that is not, so far as I am aware, known for sure and it could simply be the result of physical pressure during development in the womb.
But as this will only be a very small portion of the huge DNA molecule even if it is directly involved at all, you will never get to the point where the DNA molecule (and hence it's profile) can be reconstructed from the fingerprint pattern.
I would assume that the scan is transmitted to a database rather than the database being held in the scanner (if for no other reason than memory size required).Backatcha Bandit said:
They already are, in police stations. Ink and paper was replaced over the last few years.
ANPR is Automatic Number Plate Recognition. It is a technique, a technology, like CCTV cameras or bar code readers. There is no "ANPR database". There are other (various) databases connected to ANPR readers - the ANPR reads the car number and asks the database for a search in just the same way as a copper sees a car number and asks the radio operator to ask the database for a search by typing in the number. The main police database to which ANPR is linked is the PNC but there are others. The database may retain the details of checks made for any length of time, as programmed. It is the PNC and / or other databases connected to the ANPR units which are being adapted to change the retention time for data on searches being made.
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One of the most successful (and IMO most likely to proliferate) yet seldom mentioned areas of biometric identification technologies is that of 'Gait Recognition'.
Lots on that here: http://www.isis.ecs.soton.ac.uk/research/gait.html
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Finally... for Fela - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4595949.stm
[/QUOTE]So you think driving under the influence of drugs should be allowed. I take it therefore that you agree that drink-driving should be perfectly legal?fela fan said:
denniseagle
ding dong the witch is dead
Divisive Cotton said:If 60% are giving false details - then why doesn't the police make a note of their registration number at the same time?
And if they haven't informed dvla of change of ownership of the vehicle?
Its a 'pool' car used by any number of people?
The number plates are cloned?
How would your 'suggestion' help in identifying the drive r in any of the above instances??
cybertect
It's grim up north (London)
detective-boy said:
If I may beg to differ, D-B: from an article published on the The Institution of Engineering and Technology web site in July 2006.
I run a few Oracle servers myself. IMHO, the NADC data warehouse where the ANPR read data is stored could be rightly called an "ANPR database."
The power of the system lies in being able to cross-reference this with various other databases that are held by the Police, other government bodies and third parties like Insurance companies.The rest of the article is worth a read. I'll leave you to discover the entertaining conclusion to the article, especially considering it's written for engineers
cybertect
It's grim up north (London)
If you fancy building one for yourself here's a bit more detail on the hardware and software they're using.
cybertect
It's grim up north (London)
detective-boy said:
I think you've misunderstood Azrael's point. He's talking about amplifying cells left behind in a fingerprint to establish a DNA profile, not reverse-engineering the profile from the fingerprint pattern.
It's already being done.
http://www.officer.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=25197
Given enough time and money (and plenty of both are available in this field) I think it's highly likely that a portable unit will be produced that records both the fingerprint and DNA profile. It might be 30 years off, it may be sooner.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
There is no doubt technology is going as Orwell predicted.
The government is implementing ever more sophisticated ways of monitoring the people that elected it and it is justifying this because regularly we are told that the people do need protecting from themselves.
But do we in fact need protecting from ourselves?
The government is implementing ever more sophisticated ways of monitoring the people that elected it and it is justifying this because regularly we are told that the people do need protecting from themselves.
But do we in fact need protecting from ourselves?
No, no, no, no, NO! How many times do I have to tell you people!denniseagle said:
There are no actual instances of people using vehicles which are not registered / registered to someone else / registered in false details .... It's all bollocks put about by the Old Bill to get sweeping new powers so they don't have to get off their lardy arses and do any real police work. If they weren't all so fucking idle / incompetent / racist / ill-educated / (add abuse of choice here) they'd easily be able to solve everything instantly.
If only people of Divisive Cotton's calibre could be enticed into the police ...
* Dreams wistfully of the days when police officers thought of noting registration numbers down and tracing the registered keepers ... *
I know perfectly well about that particular database, thank you.cybertect said:
It could be called that (and it is probably what is meant when people do refer to the "ANPR database" because it is the one most closely connected with the actual ANPR technology itself).
I make the distinction for the simple reason that this lazy shorthand (a) encourages a misunderstanding of what is actually happening out there and (b) encourages paranoia about what is happening and why. There are very legitimate concerns about how data is being gathered and stored but we will not succeed in getting those concerns adequately debated or addressed if we do not know (or do not appear to know) what the fuck we are talking about.
I know that is possible, thank you. I have actually posted here about the use of the Low-Copy Number (LCN) DNA profiling technique on which it relies.cybertect said:
But that is not what Azrael said.
As for having a portable device that could record both fingerprint and DNA profile in a single action, that will never happen.
The fingerprint can be scanned and converted into a digital file which can then be stored / transmitted to a central database. There is no need to physically take anything from the finger or to physically process anything. Apart from a wipe clean of the scan plate (and that is probably unnecessary as the residual shadown of a previous fingerprint will be entirely swamped out by the physical details of the newly-applied finger) there will be no contamination issues to worry about.
The DNA relies on: (a) a sample of the residue on the finger (sweat / grease / whatever) being taken; (b) that sample (which is "dirty" in chemical terms) being chemically processed to extract the DNA; (c) that DNA (which is insufficient in quantity for a profile to be obtained) being "amplified" (effectively biochemically photocopied); (d) the resultant DNA being treated to form the profile (broken up chemically in precisely controlled conditions); (e) the resultant parts being seperated across an electric field; (f) the resultant pattern in the gel used being chemically treated so as to become visible (in ordinary light or some other light); (g) that profile (pattern) being converted into a digital file which can then be stored or transmitted to a central database.
Everything up to point (g) is extra to the fingerprint process. Each step requires time, precise laboratory conditions and total lack of contamination to a greater or lesser extent.
There is simply no way that the current profiling technology could be developed into a portable, instant device similar to the fingerprint readers being trialled.
Someone may one day invent a wholly new way of doing DNA profiling ... but someone may one day invent a machine which causes people to worry about realistic issues rather than entirely spurious ones ...
detective-boy said:
Yeah, well learn this, i'm not the people, nor am i the parliament. I am me. And if i choose not to wear a seatbelt, then that is that. You and your society can simply fuck off.
Anyone who breaks a legal law will knowingly do so. They have decided that the punishment is less than the obeying of said stupid law. If the law and society want to 'punish' me, then they do that. It is more important for my own life to disobey stupidity or interference with my freedom.
cybertect
It's grim up north (London)
detective-boy said:
Regardless of the precise mechanism, roadside DNA testing is certainly being sought by the Police and other interested bodies.
Testimony by Dr Dave Werrett, Chief Executive of the Forensic Science Service, 15 December 2004
It may not be necessary or possible to combine both fingerprint and DNA collection into a single action test, at least in the short term. Most likely it would be some test based on a saliva sample. However, from an interface point of view, I'm sure that would be a highly attractive long term goal.
detective-boy said:
It used to be. I happen to think there's a difference between drink and drunk driving. The latter is a total killer and i agree that society should take measures to stop it.
As for how you find the dividing line, dunno, but i instinctively don't like state control over our lives. Especially as the state, or rather its representatives, are the biggest destroyers of human life on a scale that individuals cannot begin to match.
As for drugs, nowt wrong whatsoever with smoking weed and driving.
Unless you worry about forgetting where it is you have to go...
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