4th test

[Flashman]

3-0 would have flattered SA really, we haven't been completely shite and they haven't been outstanding (mind you Steyn missed the last two and he was just warming up).

Bowling was quite good, Jimmeh seems to have finally turned the corner. Ryan looked tired but he'll come back strong. Harmi looked okay although as I've said we'll see how he does over the winter (I'm not expecting him to run through India, just turn up, bowl straight and don't whinge). Fred is Fred. Batted better than I thought he would.

Never really confident about the batting aside from KP, needs looking at.

 

[TrippyLondoner]

I agree, but what let us down was...

1) The bowlers not working as a unit for both innings and seeming like they just gave up in the end.

2) The batting, we really need to work hard on this, especially the middle order, i don't know why they just give up so easily. They're better than that.

 

[Nemo]

Bell out for Bopara or Shah anyone?

 

[g force]

Nope. Give him the next tour and if he still fails then I think it's time he was dropped.

 

[TrippyLondoner]

Not in favour of bell being dropped tbh.

 

[mrsfran]

Fred is Fred. Batted better than I thought he would..

Really? He only just did better than Ambrose, and came 7th in the number of runs over the series in the team with 113. Not very impressive.

 

[Flashman]

His batting has been shocking for a while now, so considering I only expected about 50 runs from him 113 ain't bad.

Kallis was the real shocker, 106 runs @ 14.85

 

[Santino]

Bell's been in the side for 3 years now, if he hasn't secured his place yet I don't think he ever will.

 

[TrippyLondoner]

His batting has been shocking for a while now, so considering I only expected about 50 runs from him 113 ain't bad.

Kallis was the real shocker, 106 runs @ 14.85

That's just down to englands good bowling . Obviously flintoffs poor form was entirely down to poor batting.

 

[JTG]

Bell's been in the side for 3 years now, if he hasn't secured his place yet I don't think he ever will.

43 Tests; 77 Innings; 2923 runs; Top score 199; Average 42.36; 8 100s; 19 50s

So he averages over 40 and passes 50 better than once every three innings.

What an awful player, he should be dropped immediately

 

[TrippyLondoner]

I used to hate bell cause he was shit at the start, but he's progressed enough to not be dropped.

 

[tangerinedream]

43 Tests; 77 Innings; 2923 runs; Top score 199; Average 42.36; 8 100s; 19 50s

So he averages over 40 and passes 50 better than once every three innings.

What an awful player, he should be dropped immediately

Totally.

I think the questions England have answer before the Ashes are

Are Strauss and Cook too similar to open together? (Could Vaughan return?)
Is Fred a bowler or an all rounder, if the former, he must replace Broad and another batter get's a chance. (Is that Shah or Bopara or someone else...?)
Is Anderson or Sidebottom going to make way for a fit Simon Jones?
Is KP actually a captain? - Beating a side in a dead rubber game (Boycott's comments were very true about this) is not an indication of a glorious new era...
Is their someone who can catch a cricket ball with gloves on and bat at 35+ (esp if Fred's an all-rounder....)
Is Harmison up for it or is it Tresco all over again - he is, no he's not, yes he is, no he's not etc...?

Ian Bell is I think one of the few things not in question about the England side atm. He's frustrating cos he never quite gets as good as he looks he could, but he's done the job for 3 years to good standard.

This is going to be a great winter I think.

 

[Nemo]

Ian Bell is I think one of the few things not in question about the England side atm. He's frustrating cos he never quite gets as good as he looks he could, but he's done the job for 3 years to good standard.

He also never makes 100 unless someone else does first. And he's batting at 3!

 

[Santino]

Against our next big opponents (India, Sri Lanka and Australia) he averages under 30 though and has scored no centuries.

edited to add: By contrast, KP's average against the same opponents is 50.25 (as against 50.51 vs. all opposition) and has scored 6 of his 14 centuries against them.

 

[tangerinedream]

Fair enough, as I say, Bell hasn't satisfied me completely either, but I think there are players with bigger question marks over them before him. I think Shah and/or Bopara and/or Prior clearly deserve another chance in the medium term but I don't think Bell deserves to be dropped. You can't drop a lad who makes the top score in the last series on the basis of his travails 2 years ago.

Bopara is the obvious heir to Collingwood's position (let's face it, Colly isn't getting any younger) and may have to wait a little if Colly stays in the form he seemed to find again. The thing that works in Shah's favour though is if we do play 5 bowlers then we don't really need someone to bowl dibbly dobbly occaisional seam

Prior would be a straight swap for Ambrose - I feel sorry for Ambrose, but I think we need 5 bowlers and can't rely on Fred to score like a test class no 6. By all accounts his keeping has improved, I can't comment on that as I havn't seen him but he's got a lot of runs this year. Fred at seven unless he suddenly remembers how to bat.

Shah - I dunno who he replaces... ian Bell

 

[Santino]

Shah - I dunno who he replaces... ian Bell

This is the big problem with the batting line-up. It isn't functioning well enough as a unit, but no one stands out as demanding to be dropped. Each time someone looks like losing their place they score a century (Strauss, Bell and Colly I'm looking at you). Cook hasn't scored over 70-odd for ages now, and all but one of his centuries were in the first half of his 30 or so matches. I don't think any of the top five apart from KP would necessarily get selected now if we forgot about loyalty and continuity for a moment.

 

[TrippyLondoner]

The clear problem is the batsman aren't being pushed for their places, there's no real competition in the batting. Something that should be looked at, really.

 

[Matt S]

TL,

Too true. I'm a big big fan of Shah, but last time I checked he was averaging under 40 in the Championship (Div 2!). Hardly awesome stuff.

Matt

 

[Santino]

TL,

Too true. I'm a big big fan of Shah, but last time I checked he was averaging under 40 in the Championship (Div 2!). Hardly awesome stuff.

Matt

True, I like Shao too but I think Bopara has to be first choice, based on performances this year.

 

[TwentyThree]

Come on then, list a 13 man squad you'd like to see in India.

Batsmen:

Strauss
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Prior
Bopara


Bowlers:

S. Jones
Harmison
Flintoff
Anderson
Sidebottom
Panesar

Keeper:

Foster
(and preferably Prior)

 

[g force]

I'd swap Broad for Sidebottom - IMO Ryan's peaked, Broad hasn't and is a far better batsman.

Foster? No chance...simply not good enough behind the stumps.

 

[Santino]

Foster? No chance...simply not good enough behind the stumps.

Have you got the right man there? He is superior to Prior, and only Steven Davies has outperformed him in the County Championship this year.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Have you got the right man there? He is superior to Prior, and only Steven Davies has outperformed him in the County Championship this year.

I would still go with Read. Rodney Marsh thinks he is the best keeper in the world, and he's not as bad a batsman as some seem to think. Ironically he was dropped last time just as he was starting to make runs. They're awkward Jack Russell-style runs, but that's the traditional wicketkeeper's way.

 

[tangerinedream]

I would still go with Read. Rodney Marsh thinks he is the best keeper in the world, and he's not as bad a batsman as some seem to think. Ironically he was dropped last time just as he was starting to make runs. They're awkward Jack Russell-style runs, but that's the traditional wicketkeeper's way.

didn't he play in the ICL which would make taking him to india very difficult...
or maybe I dreamt that

 

[tangerinedream]

Come on then, list a 13 man squad you'd like to see in India.

Batsmen:

Strauss
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Prior
Bopara


Bowlers:

S. Jones
Harmison
Flintoff
Anderson
Sidebottom
Panesar

Keeper:

Foster
(and preferably Prior)

Would you not take a second spinner to india?

 

[TrippyLondoner]

Would you not take a second spinner to india?

But he has, did you not notice KP?

 

[tangerinedream]

But he has, did you not notice KP?

There's this fella called Vaughan who bowls handy off spin.

 

[JTG]

didn't he play in the ICL which would make taking him to india very difficult...
or maybe I dreamt that

He did but we should just tell the BCCI to fuck off, they don't dictate who we pick in our squads do they?

On the same subject I thought Middlesex should have refused to compete in this ridiculous 'Champions League' unless Kent were included as well.

 

[Santino]

On the same subject I thought Middlesex should have refused to compete in this ridiculous 'Champions League' unless Kent were included as well.

It's a fair point, but conversely, Middlesex is one of the poorer counties (it doesn't own it's main ground and can't make income from Tests and ODIs) and the money that the League will money is money too money to money. (And I speak as a Middlemoney fan.)

 

[g force]

Have you got the right man there? He is superior to Prior, and only Steven Davies has outperformed him in the County Championship this year.

Okay I overstated but I just don't think he's any better than the other options they're all much of a muchness. Ambrose, Prior, Foster....I don't think any of them will be good enough batsman at test level.

Read's a conundrum...talented for sure but then so were Hick and Ramps. I'm not convinced he'd cut it anymore than those mentioned above.

That would be my only argument for keeping Ambrose on for the next tour - get some continuity into the side. If he fails then so be it and we've learnt he'll never be good enough at test level.