48 hour opt out to be abolished?

[GoneCoastal]

Protection from exploitation needs firm rules which cannot be opted out of.

My problem with a blanket approach is that it doesn't allow for or cater for genuine emergencies or specific circumstances that arise like massive demand for work following floods, say

I'd prefer to give more teeth to existing employment legislation so that employers can't force people to (in this example) work more hours than their individual employment contract allows and to give people where that happens a proper strong recourse - maybe that recourse is already there in a Union ?

Taking into account what I said earlier that I agree there should be limits based around specific jobs where safety & health is an issue, for example medical people, train drivers etc (with those limits set by Heath & Safety people or those that know the industry/sector not government) but not a blanket "one size fits all" limit

As an example, if you have a fixed limit of hours for everyone irrespective of their job type, what happens when you need to call an emergency plumber on a weekend ? If all the plumbers say ... "sorry, can't come out - I've done my maximum hours this week" or it's a company "sorry I can't send anyone, they've all done their maximum hours this week"

Yes I realise that's an extreme example but it should illustrate the point I'm trying to make which is that there has to be some degree of flexibility

 

[TomPaine]

Exacly, in the long term every boss could just ask every candidate whether they would be willing to work more than 48 hours.

TBH I've never heard of this happening though and the laws for the opt out have been around since Major. Obviously it is certain companies which seem to indulge in this, so why aren;t they being targetted? What we will see is people now doing unpaid overtime....

 

[weltweit]

I would be in favour of it if it meant that instead of having one person doing 80hrs/wk you had two people doing 48hrs/wk. Spread the work about, why not, has to be a good idea.

But legislating that I cannot chose myself to work more than 48 hours in a week or per week over a month period which is I think what the law says. just gets my goat!

Why not legislate that I spend no longer than 1/2 an hour in the bath, whatever the temperature of the water and even if I have fallen asleep to a CD .. no longer than half an hour because then you become wrinkly !!!

 

[GoneCoastal]

TBH I've never heard of this happening though and the laws for the opt out have been around since Major. Obviously it is certain companies which seem to indulge in this, so why aren;t they being targetted? What we will see is people now doing unpaid overtime....

The monitoring organisation already exists iirc. From memory, it's the HSE and as I said before, I'm reasonably sure that companies are supposed to maintain & produce records already if asked

Again, if I remember rightly payroll can be used as a record if that accurately reflects the hours people are working but if there's hours being worked that would not show on that, then I think those should be recorded separately

(And unpaid overtime would classed as working hours so technically should be recorded) because this is about working hours not just paid hours


SECTION 2: WORKING TIME LIMITS

• Workers cannot be forced to work for more than 48 hours a week on average.
• Young Workers may not ordinarily work more than 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week, although there are certain permitted exceptions (please see Special daily and weekly working time limits).
• Working time limits for doctors in training are being phased in gradually (please see Special daily and weekly working time limits)
• Working time includes travelling where it is part of the job, working lunches and job-related training.
• Working time does not include travelling between home and work, lunch breaks, evening classes or day-release courses.
• The average weekly working time is normally calculated over 17 weeks. This can be longer in certain situations (26 weeks) and it can be extended by agreement (up to 52 weeks - see Section 8).
• Workers can agree to work longer than the 48-hour limit. An agreement must be in writing and signed by the worker. This is generally referred to as an opt-out. It can be for a specified period or a indefinite period. There is no opt-out available from the Young Workers limits.
• Workers can cancel the opt-out agreement whenever they want, although they must give their employer at least seven days’ notice, or longer (up to three months) if this has been agreed.
• The working time limits do not apply if workers can decide how long they work - see Section 8

http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/employment/employment-legislation/employment-guidance/page28978.html

Contains a good breakdown of the whole thing (and - yes it's the HSE and other organisations that monitor)

Here http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/fod/oc/001-099/1-6.htm

And here is the guidance and penalties etc from HSE http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/fod/oc/001-099/1_7.pdf

 

[GoneCoastal]

...double post

 

[TomPaine]

I would be in favour of it if it meant that instead of having one person doing 80hrs/wk you had two people doing 48hrs/wk. Spread the work about, why not, has to be a good idea.

That would only work in some jobs though.

 

[Zachor]

I don't think many do because they enjoy it, they do it because they need the cash or aren't given a choice about signing the opt out form. Who enjoys doing more hours then they have to.

Its quite common now for people registering with agencies for work to be asked to sign the opt out. Not signing means you are less likely to be offered work.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Yup. Not even the that recent, happened a lot 8 to 10 years ago when I did a lot of agency work and still seems to be the same.

 

[GoneCoastal]

As a result of reading up again, I realised I'd forgotten the bit about having a part time (or 2nd job) too:

Working for more than one employer

If a person works for more than one employer, the total number of hours they work has to be taken into account when assessing compliance with the weekly limit. It would be good practice for employers to make reasonable enquiries to discover if their employees are working elsewhere and to ensure that the average of 48 weekly working hours (8 hours a day and 40 hours a week for young people) is not exceeded. This does not apply where the other work is conducted either in a genuinely self-employed capacity or in one of the excluded sectors since neither of these are working time for the purposes of the Regulations.

If it is likely that the weekly limit will be exceeded, the employer has either to take reasonable steps to ensure the limit is complied with, or should ask the worker to enter into an agreement (see next section) that the limit should not apply in their case. In this context “reasonable steps” could include having to restrict the number of hours the person works for them. If an opt-out is agreed the employer should also advise the worker that they must make similar arrangements with their other employer(s) even if they only work a few hours for them.

Where possible the various employers should cooperate with each other to ensure that they are all complying with the Regulations. The duty, however, ultimately rests on each individual employer, and they will only be in compliance if they can show that they have taken all reasonable steps.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/fod/oc/001-099/1-6.htm#maximum

 

[weltweit]

Is this detailed specification affecting our lives in a very detailed way, what we expect to come out of Europe for us, does it benefit us in the short and long term? does it make us more competitive or less? does it increase our quality of life?

If this is the sort of thing we do expect of Europe, what next?

 

[TomPaine]

I can see that this may lead to more outsourcing, because when you can pay a development team in India 1/4 of the wage you pay a development team in say Brighton and the India guys work a 6 day week then that is going to seem very attractive to multi-nationals.

 

[behemoth]

We can get between £200 and £400 for an extra 12 hour shift.

Not surprisingly no one wants anyone telling us what hours we can work.

But our company does have sites outside the EU who would be more than happy to take up the slack.