25 quid congestion charge coming in 2009

[T & P]

I think far more likely is a combination of emissions from both petrol and diesel engines from the immense number of vehicles that travel through the city.

Nobody needs a large 4x4 or a supersports car to commute into central London or drive around town. Congestion is a massive problem. Pollution is a massive problem. And we need to curb it. Drivers of such vehicles are perfectly fair game.

 

[moose]

It only applied to vehicles registered after March 2006, so will encourage people to hold onto their older, less technologically advanced vehicles.

 

[Cobbles]

I think far more likely is a combination of emissions from both petrol and diesel engines from the immense number of vehicles that travel through the city.

Nobody needs a large 4x4 or a supersports car to commute into central London or drive around town. Congestion is a massive problem. Pollution is a massive problem. And we need to curb it. Drivers of such vehicles are perfectly fair game.

If you can afford to purchase, park and fuel a vehicle in band G, then a few extra quid a day isn't going to make any difference (just don't have the second bottle of Shiraz at lunch).

that means that because (a) the proportion of such vehicles in London traffic flow is low to begin with and (b) the assumption can be made that very few of this tiny proportion will change their habits - the overall effect will be nil.

It's just yet more pointless posturing and in real terms, Ken's recent jaunt to Cuba (with 4 aides flying ahead for the abortive Chavez meeting in Venezuela) has probably burnt more fuel than this pointless exercise will ever manage to prevent.

 

[Dubversion]

I presume it'll also affect buses - they're the worst polluting vehicles I know of - surely that'll stuff up the fares?

please tell me you KNOW that's bollocks

 

[editor]

Cars produce naff all green house gases in the great scheme of things

Welcome to Cobbles's weird alternative universe.

The agency says: "The main reason is a runaway increase in emissions from transport, especially road transport...

"The transport sector, responsible for just over one-fifth of the EU's greenhouse gases, poses by far the biggest challenge to the Kyoto targets, largely because of fast-growing emissions from road transport..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3253476.stm

 

[zoltan]

Ive got a 200 bhp 4WD Volvo - not a 4x4, just a 4WD estate - and im sure it pumps out tons of shite . Its for long journeys with the family + baggage/ chattels etc

I live in SE LOndon & us Public transport at all possible times

I can go a week or more without using it.I fully accept that I shoudl pay more if I want to enter the congestion zone
EDIT - I cant afford to kiil it off yet, but when it gets sick, then a better alternative will be sought

 

[marty21]

it's going to be more of a wealth indicator, i have bling i can still afford £5k a year to drive in london

 

[g force]

I think far more likely is a combination of emissions from both petrol and diesel engines from the immense number of vehicles that travel through the city.

Nobody needs a large 4x4 or a supersports car to commute into central London or drive around town. Congestion is a massive problem. Pollution is a massive problem. And we need to curb it. Drivers of such vehicles are perfectly fair game.

Not strictly true. My partner's dad is a freelance lighting and studio engineer. He has a Toyota 4x4 (a Hi-Lux...I think...) that hes used on OB shoots and to lug lighting cans and rigs around. He's not making enough money to also buy, insure and run a separate smaller van when he's called into work in West End studios run by Chanel 4, 5 and the entire BBC.

Unless of course you're suggesting he turn down work. Because i'm sure his bank manager and mortgage lender would love to hear that.

 

[T & P]

If you can afford to purchase, park and fuel a vehicle in band G, then a few extra quid a day isn't going to make any difference (just don't have the second bottle of Shiraz at lunch).

that means that because (a) the proportion of such vehicles in London traffic flow is low to begin with and (b) the assumption can be made that very few of this tiny proportion will change their habits - the overall effect will be nil.

I disagree. Regardless of how comfortable they might be, a great many people will be mightly pissed off at the prospect of paying £500 extra per month for driving a Chelsea Tractor. Not everybody who owns the thigns are millionaires by any means. And even if they were, people can be surprisingly tight fisted regardless of how many zeroes there are in their bank account balance figure.

But if that turns out to be not deterrent enough, then I trust and hope Ken will review the situation in due time and increase the charge to £50, £75, or quite simply whatever it takes.

 

[maximilian ping]

I love the congestion charge, traffic wardens, road tax, conmen mechanics and the fact cars stop working after a year of buying them. i think this is because i don't drive

 

[Wide Eyed Angel]

Who's going to pay the compensation if this affects resale values of vehicles in band G?

I presume it'll also affect buses - they're the worst polluting vehicles I know of - surely that'll stuff up the fares?

I might be being a bit special here but surely part of the point of this congestion charge stuffs is to get folk that don't need to use their cock extention 4x4s to use public transport? London's public transport is a damn sight more than the rest of the country and to drive yourself about encountering some of the shittest drivers around when you can be driven by some bus driving chap surely that's a good thing all round?

 

[trashpony]

Not strictly true. My partner's dad is a freelance lighting and studio engineer. He has a Toyota 4x4 (a Hi-Lux...I think...) that hes used on OB shoots and to lug lighting cans and rigs around. He's not making enough money to also buy, insure and run a separate smaller van when he's called into work in West End studios run by Chanel 4, 5 and the entire BBC.

Unless of course you're suggesting he turn down work. Because i'm sure his bank manager and mortgage lender would love to hear that.

As far as I can work out, that's band F, not G. So the charge won't apply to him.

What the fuck is all this bleeding heart crap? There's no need to drive a Band G car, none. There are plenty of capacious vehicles which aren't band G and so won't have to pay this.

(that isn't specifically aimed at you but I'm tired of these dull arguments being trotted out time and again. Find out the facts. Then comment)

 

[g force]

I'm not disagreeing, but i'm equally tired of the undercurrent of "fuck 'em it's the rich wankers in BMW X-5s and Ferrari's". It's not that simple.

Hopefully it will lead to people making smarter, more informed decisions about what car they drive - i'm sure plenty of manufacturers with band A-C vehicles will advertise the fact.

 

[trashpony]

I'm not disagreeing, but i'm equally tired of the undercurrent of "fuck 'em it's the rich wankers in BMW X-5s and Ferrari's". It's not that simple.

Hopefully it will lead to people making smarter, more informed decisions about what car they drive - i'm sure plenty of manufacturers with band A-C vehicles will advertise the fact.

Why?

I live on the edge of Hampstead where the streets are very narrow. There are constant traffic jams because the roads are not wide enough for two Porsche Cayennes to pass one another. I get really fucking sick and tired of it. There's no need for a car like that - it's ostentation, pure and simple. And it's saying 'fuck you, fuck the planet, fuck everyone except me.' And sadly people like that are too thick to understand anything else other than money.

 

[Pie 1]

Not strictly true. My partner's dad is a freelance lighting and studio engineer. He has a Toyota 4x4 (a Hi-Lux...I think...) that hes used on OB shoots and to lug lighting cans and rigs around. He's not making enough money to also buy, insure and run a separate smaller van when he's called into work in West End studios run by Chanel 4, 5 and the entire BBC.

Unless of course you're suggesting he turn down work. Because i'm sure his bank manager and mortgage lender would love to hear that.

I would sugest he build's it into his expenses like most freelancer's do.

Anyway, it's academic. As Trashpony says, that vehicle is not affected

 

[Giles]

Buses and vehicles with 9 or more seats (subject to application) do not pay the congestion charge by the way!

http://www.cclondon.com/downloads/Vehicles.pdf

I know all about this. My Transit minibus is exempt from congestion charge, whether or not I am actually carryign any passengers.

Incidentally, the long wheelbase Land Rover Defender has 9 seats, so you can have one of these (a great big 4x4) and still not pay it.....

Giles..

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

So the LA smog (increasingly seen in London too) is... what?

not caused by internal traffic by periffary traffic mainly lorries and desil particulates....

If every single car lorry bus indeed internal combustion engine where to be banned from london now forever up to the m25 then we'd still have the same levels of pollution we have currently ...

Why because londons in a bowl the pollution comes from the M25 not from cars internal to london... it all 'collects' in london like rain water in a basin...

but then this congestion charge really needs to be be relooked at...

Intially it was to stop congestion on roads which where blocked due to road works created due to maintainence programs which were (purposely) uncoordinated, poor traffic light synchroniseation, riddicluios and unessacerry road calming schemes and one way systems which although removing rat runs created sungle point arterial roads which allow no traffic filtration and created bigger traffic jams an thus great pollution.

Intially, was a charge to resolve that mess.

Then it becames about funding new public transport, and how this investment could if the predicited/projected figures which were wildely estimated and grossly over exagertated in terms of revunue generation and this was supposed to be of beinifit makeing people make the switch...

Then it was to support the infrastrcutre as it needed rebuilding and the every expanding remit of TFL the biggest conartist group in the UK...

now it's justifed as a pollution tax....

Realy Ken you want to make you fucking mind upand stick to it rather than the constant fucking wriggling about how and why it's needed...

oh and you also want to deal with the generation gap which will come when people who have never not know the congestion charge merely incorperate it into their driving expenses just as they do the year car tax, fuel, insurence hikes...

seriouslt flawed and again attacks londons motorists with out providing any real factual justification, it's merely jumping on the green bandwagon and paing lip service to the whole thing...

now if they increased the catchment area to include the m25...

then i'd be for it...

can you imagine the level of transport system if each lorry had to pay £25 every day... and the descrease in the level of pollution in london...

 

[beeboo]

can you imagine the level of transport system if each lorry had to pay £25 every day... and the descrease in the level of pollution in london...

The most polluting lorries will have to be a hell of a lot more than that if/when the LEZ comes into force...

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/low-emission-zone/

 

[Giles]

Does anyone know what the kengestion charge will be for cars registered before they brought in the A-G "bands"? Will it be the same, or more?

I can't find a news article that actually tells you this, they are all too focussed on the minority of "band G" cars and jeeps etc.

Giles..

 

[Cobbles]

I disagree. Regardless of how comfortable they might be, a great many people will be mightly pissed off at the prospect of paying £500 extra per month for driving a Chelsea Tractor. Not everybody who owns the thigns are millionaires by any means. And even if they were, people can be surprisingly tight fisted regardless of how many zeroes there are in their bank account balance figure.

But if that turns out to be not deterrent enough, then I trust and hope Ken will review the situation in due time and increase the charge to £50, £75, or quite simply whatever it takes.

All right so it'll maybe drive a hundred or so vehicles away from the centre of London.

WOW what a triumph - whooeee.

IF and it's a huge if - ALL vehicles (including buses and lorries) produce a fifth of "greenhouse gases" which may or may not be responsible for "Global warming" which appears to have been happening since we used to have Frost Fairs on the Thames in the times of Pepys, then this'll make less difference to air quality than removing a single fag end from the pavement would make to the improvement of urban architecture.

It's simply the politics of envy driven by "get-me-a-plane-for-me-and-my-retinue-not-to-attend-a-meeting" Ken.

Instead of begging for cheap diesel, why's his plane-ness not out buying a fleet of Hydrogen buses?

 

[citydreams]

Does anyone know what the kengestion charge will be for cars registered before they brought in the A-G "bands"? Will it be the same, or more?

As it stands at the moment with TfL policy, it will be the same as the the Euro-emmissions standards didn't exist pre-2001.

 

[citydreams]

If every single car lorry bus indeed internal combustion engine where to be banned from london now forever up to the m25 then we'd still have the same levels of pollution we have currently ...
...

I think you've slightly got the wrong end of the stick there.

What is actually true, is that on certain days in London, even if there were no cars/buses/hgvs driving then the air quality in London would still fall short of European standards.

 

[citydreams]

All right so it'll maybe drive a hundred or so vehicles away from the centre of London.

WOW what a triumph - whooeee.

The actual figures are:
4% of vehicels in London are in Band G
They account for 14% of the traffic inside the CC.

 

[trashpony]

The actual figures are:
4% of vehicels in London are in Band G
They account for 14% of the traffic inside the CC.

14%? Jesus

 

[citydreams]

can you imagine the level of transport system if each lorry had to pay £25 every day... and the descrease in the level of pollution in london...

It's something that's being looked at. The Transport Innovation Fund (which is being used to incentivise city centres into adopting congestion charging) was originally earmarked for a HGV pay-per-mile scheme. I'm not sure what was flawed with the HGV trial but I will ask.

This shows how much could be raised from such a scheme http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/archive/200608.html

 

[Cobbles]

It's something that's being looked at. The Transport Innovation Fund (which is being used to incentivise city centres into adopting congestion charging) was originally earmarked for a HGV pay-per-mile scheme. I'm not sure what was flawed with the HGV trial but I will ask.

This shows how much could be raised from such a scheme http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/archive/200608.html

Brilliant - that'll really reduce emissions.

The added transport costs will force up the price of everything in any city imbecilic enough to set up such a scheme (yes, yes you may force 0.00001% extra onto rail transport but it still has to get from the goods yards to somewhere useful).

City dwellers will use their cars to flock to out of town retail centres as opposed to their local supermarket with a car park, turning a weekly 5 mile drive into a 20-30 mile drive increasing "greenhouse gas" production - sheer brilliance.

 

[trashpony]

Brilliant - that'll really reduce emissions.

The added transport costs will force up the price of everything in any city imbecilic enough to set up such a scheme (yes, yes you may force 0.00001% extra onto rail transport but it still has to get from the goods yards to somewhere useful).

City dwellers will use their cars to flock to out of town retail centres as opposed to their local supermarket with a car park, turning a weekly 5 mile drive into a 20-30 mile drive increasing "greenhouse gas" production - sheer brilliance.

Ummm - have you ever been to central London? Because for the average person living in the zone, it'd be about a 10 mile drive out to their nearest out of town retail centre. And the rules only apply during the day. So if I want to use my car in the evenings to drive into the zone, I can. And yes I know this is about proposing extensions but I would imagine in most big cities, the situation would be the same.

They have actually thought this through - which is more than you appear to have done.

 

[citydreams]

Brilliant - that'll really reduce emissions..

Actually it just might.. If there were storehouses on the edge of London that were used by rail, or more efficient HGVs, it's a possibility to have electric operated vehicles delivering the goods to within Central London.

As to the added cost, I've not been involved in the studies, but they won't go ahead unless the economic benefits outweigh the costs. The Central London congestion charge has a COBA of 2:1 - that's pretty impressive!

 

[Spymaster]

The actual figures are:
4% of vehicels in London are in Band G
They account for 14% of the traffic inside the CC.

That'll be because the owners can afford/don't give a fuck about, the congestion charge.

I think what'll happen is that band G owners that live outside the zone will simply by another car to use in the zone and keep the 4wd motor for other journeys and evening use, they won't get rid of them.

The streets of Hampstead and the like will be even more clogged (if that's possible) with parked up Range Rovers during the daytime.

I've lived just north of the charging zone for 6 years and have needed to pay the CC about half a dozen times in that period. I think that the assumption that drivers of these vehicles will have to pay £25/day every day is wrong. Few probably enter the zone on a daily basis and those that come in once or twice a week won't care about paying an extra £50. They're driving 50 grand plus motors ffs!

 

[citydreams]

yes you may force 0.00001% extra onto rail transport

lol... nice to see how realistic you're being!

Bus patronage in London as the result of the congestion charge was up 37% in the first year, and an extra 12% in the second. We also saw a fall by 30% of excess waiting time, and 18% respectively.